How Hot is NOT Hot Enough? - Aux Heater? Thermostat? Help Please

[Fraz-ktf]

Hi.

My Aux heater is blowing out hot exhaust, it runs-on when the engine shuts off but still, the engine coolant takes about half an hour or 20 odd miles to get to operating temp.
I just tried to bleed the coolant system with the car, nose-up on my steep drive.  Engine running for 40 minutes, heaters inside the car turned up full, cap off the expansion tank and still, the temp meter says 55 degrees.  If I turn the car heaters off, the temp will rise to 70 degrees in about a further 10 mins (Of idling and 1500 rpm tickling) but no further. No air bubbles or coolant level drop, so I assume it is bled)

On a run, it will get to 90 degrees in 20 to 30 mins or about 20 miles (Obviously depending on ambient temp, driving conditions etc) and will happily maintain a steady correct op. temp. all day long.

Not sure if it's related but the hot air blown inside the car is never truly "Hot" - more really warm, if that makes sense?  My wife's Toyota heater puts out air that is toasty-hot

My issue is:  Why is it not heating up the system in a couple of miles / 5 minutes, like my friend's old Gal did ? (I thought that's what the Aux Heater was designed for?)

Could it be a Thermostat issue? or something more sinister?

Any help / advice appreciated

[bigdave982]

Id be inclined to run heater with vcds connected and see what meas blocks are doing
If the aux heater has no water/ or heated water isnt being pumped round system it will shut down cos it aint happy
Are your pipes getting hot going away from heater?
I assume youre taking temp readings from the dash
Gotta wonder theres a problem at the display end

[Fraz-ktf]

I just connected up the VCDS and the "Output Tests" were ok - both components turned on 

Here's what I got from the Measuring Blocks  (Outside Temp was 12 Degs)

1. 14.2V - 20* - 30* - 30*

2. ON - OFF - N/A - N/A

3. OFF - OFF - OFF - BLOWER OFF

4. PUMP OFF - N/A - N/A - N/A

There were no fault codes recorded.

In the 20 minutes it took me to do all the tests (And run an Auto Scan for any other codes - with the Engine Running) - the Temp needle only lifted by about 0.5 Degrees

Dunno if any of this helps? - though I wish it was a lower ambient.

[bigdave982]

Bypass the temp sensor on wiper arm to fire it up

[Fraz-ktf]

Bypass the temp sensor on wiper arm to fire it up

thanks for the tip but where is and how do I bypass this sensor please?  what does it look like? I have had the wiper mech out to do the strip & lube mod a couple of years ago but I can't recall seeing anything like a sensor. 

[bigdave982]

Should be attached to the wiper mech on the passenger side
Just a cylinderical jobbie maybe 3/4 to 1" dia and about same long
Disconnect it and use either wire or i think people have used10 amp mini fuse to bridge the terminals in the wiring socket

[insanitybeard]

I believe the sensor clips into a clip on the cable conduit which clips to the wiper linkage, and is just visible in the 4th image down here, the bottom of it is just visible to the left of and at the top of the coolant expansion bottle- it's the bit of light brown 'thing' poking out from below the plastic cable conduit.

[Fraz-ktf]

I believe the sensor clips into a clip on the cable conduit which clips to the wiper linkage, and is just visible in the 4th image down here, the bottom of it is just visible to the left of and at the top of the coolant expansion bottle- it's the bit of light brown 'thing' poking out below from below the plastic cable conduit.

Got it, thanks 

What would I be checking for by by-passing this switch? What would it confirm / reveal? that would help solve my lack of temp. problem? - I'm guessing that it may just be to "Trick" the system in to thinking that the Ambient is below 10 degs??

[insanitybeard]

All bypassing the switch will do is trick the heater into starting, if you are happy the heater is actually running but it's not really assisting/ quickening the engine & coolant warmup time from cold it won't be of any further help. Is the secondary water pump definitely working ok?

[Fraz-ktf]

All bypassing the switch will do is trick the heater into starting, if you are happy the heater is actually running but it's not really assisting/ quickening the engine & coolant warmup time from cold it won't be of any further help. Is the secondary water pump definitely working ok?

"secondary water pump "  Where is that situated and how would I check it's operation? (Is it the "Pump Off" report in my VCDS Measuring Blocks report above?)

thanks

[insanitybeard]

It sits in the rear of the engine bay behind the fuel filter and the carbon brushes in the pump motor wear out after extended periods/ mileages a la here. In truth though, if the pump wasn't working I wouldn't expect the heater to run for any length of time before shutting down again due to overheating. If the pump is working (and it should run all the time the ignition is switched into 'run' position- position 2), you should be able to feel a faint vibration if you put your hand on it (the engine doesn't even need to be running). If the brushes are nearly worn out it's possible the motor isn't running continuously as it should be, or is running intermittently as the brushes make & break contact.

What you need to observe really, from a completely cold start is how long the booster heater actually runs for after it's initially fired up. Have you still got the factory fit D5Z-F booster heater still fitted or did you ditch it for another model?

[Fraz-ktf]

It sits in the rear of the engine bay behind the fuel filter and the carbon brushes in the pump motor wear out after extended periods/ mileages a la here. In truth though, if the pump wasn't working I wouldn't expect the heater to run for any length of time before shutting down again due to overheating. If the pump is working (and it should run all the time the ignition is switched into 'run' position- position 2), you should be able to feel a faint vibration if you put your hand on it (the engine doesn't even need to be running). If the brushes are nearly worn out it's possible the motor isn't running continuously as it should be, or is running intermittently as the brushes make & break contact.

What you need to observe really, from a completely cold start is how long the booster heater actually runs for after it's initially fired up. Have you still got the factory fit D5Z-F booster heater still fitted or did you ditch it for another model?

Thanks for your very informative reply, Mr Insanitybeard.

I'll check the pump's operation tomorrow, in the light.  The Aux heater seems to run all the time, in as much as I can hear it's jet engine spin-down sound even at the end of an hour's driving.

I'm going to go for a little run in the car now to see if prolonged use will generate any fault codes, ready for tomorrow's investigations.

[Fraz-ktf]

Whipped out the scuttle panel liner thingy and whilst my magician's assistant turned on my ignition, the pump under there made no noise or vibrations.

I'm guessing that this is my problem?  So, I battled with the electrical connector to try and undo that and whilst mid-swear, the pump started up (I admit to jumping like it was a rattle snake  ) . . . . so I pushed on the connector and the pump ran. Ignition off and back on and it didn't run! . . . . to cut a very repetative story short, if the ignition is in the ON position and I push on the connector, hard, in the horizontal direction from front of car to back of car, the pump will run, however, if the ignition is turned OFF whilst the pump is running, when the ignition is turned ON, the pump doesn't run (Until man-handled)

Does this make any sense to anyone?

I'm of the persuasion to change brushes as opposed to change the unit, should that be needed.  Make & mend, I say, make & mend.

[Chrispb]

Ah Ha the first dead pump this year me thinks

Options; new pump over Ã,£100 ish or new brushes Ã,£5 ish on ebay

https://www.fordmpv.com/smf2/ford-galaxy-reference-library/galaxy-replacing-the-run-on-pump-brushes-(tdi-and-v6)/

[Fraz-ktf]

Ah Ha the first dead pump this year me thinks

Options; new pump over Ã,£100 ish or new brushes Ã,£5 ish on ebay

https://www.fordmpv.com/smf2/ford-galaxy-reference-library/galaxy-replacing-the-run-on-pump-brushes-(tdi-and-v6)/

And here's me thinking it was a loose connection in the plug area?

Deffo going down the "Replace brushes" route but:

1. what size brushes are needeed? or what description to search for?

2. Can the pump be by-passed, with some 22mm copper pipe, whilst surgery is performed?

Thanks again 

[insanitybeard]

I suspect the brushes in your pump have reached the end of their useful life and by disturbing the pump when you push the connector you're causing them to make contact and make the pump run briefly. Member bigdave982 did have some suitable brushes for sale, if you send him a P.M he may be able to help. As long as you can effectively join the two coolant hoses with the pump removed, there's no reason why you can't bypass it.

If all else fails, there are U.S sellers selling the complete new Bosch pump more cheaply than UK sellers, even with shipping and import tax I paid about Ã,£65 for one from the States about 12 months ago.

[Chrispb]

5mm X 5mm X 10mm preferably, it's all in the how to link.
Yes you can remove it temporarily and link the pipes together without a problem but would advise changing the hose clips to the jubilee type.

[Fraz-ktf]

22mm copper pipe fits nice & snugly.
Dismantled the pump to find very worn brushes and plenty carbon dust.
Will fit new brushes tomorrow and report back 

[bigdave982]

Did you cure it or still trying to get motor back together after fitting new brushes?☺

[Fraz-ktf]

Well, after removing the motor's cover and finding that the brushes were more-or-less powder, I replaced them and re-fitted the motor (What a pain in the butt of a job, getting the hoses & their clips on  )

The motor now runs as it should and with the heater turned off in the car and a 12 degree ambient, the temp. guage tells me Op. Temp. in 3 miles / 6 minutes - a vast improvement.

I checked with VAG-COM before running with the "New" motor and there was an "Overheat" fault (Presumably because there was no coolant pump?) but now, there are no faults after running it for a couple of days. 

It's all back together again (Until sometime very soon when another heater fault is bound to appear  ) so thank you very much, again, to all you guys who have contributed and helped me through this one.