Galaxy 2.0 Petrol Starting Issue

[Gazza71]

Hi all,

Ive got a 56 Galaxy 2.0 Ghia Petrol.
Love the car, starts first time in a morning just sometimes when its been run for a while then left for a short period (1/2-1 hour) it struggles to start.
Turns over fine just doesnt fire up.
Lightly pressed the accelerator pedal last time it did it and it burst into life.
Any ideas? 
Cars done 65k, runs and drives great.

Cheers
Gazza

[Mirez]

Sounds like a fuelling problem, petrol can expand and push out from the lines if the engine is hot. Firstly, I would change the fuel filter and then look to see if the check valve is functioning. After that, it could be a faulty fuel pump (IIRC the Mk3 has two of them) - can you hear a short whirring sound when you turn the ignition on?

[gregers]

as above,but 1st i would check to see if there are bubbles in the fuel line,it might just need bleeding a tad?

[januszt]

Question: Where on Galaxy Mk3 2.0 Petrol (Duratec HE) 2007 year i can find fuel filter?

I have similar issues with my car. After some research under the car, I found black 'box' just behind fuel tank. It consists of two cylinders. Smaller one has just one, open-ended hose. Second, bigger one, has two hoses: bigger (same size as previouly mentioned one)  and smaller. Both seem to be 'arriving' from fuel tank side. Smaller hose is by dry after disconnecting, but smells fuel. Is this 'package' a fuel filter or is this something else?

[insanitybeard]

The fuel filter should have two pipes coming out of it- an inlet and an outlet,  what you're describing sounds like the evaporative emissions unit rather than a fuel filter.

[Chrispb]

Not had any dealing with a petrol MK3 but sounds like it could be the charcoal canister that's usually in the engine bay or wheel arch.
Had a quick look on etis and it says fuel filter is an integral part of fuel pump/sender unit.

[januszt]

Chrispb:
Hmm. what is the role of this charcoal canister (location description - wheel arch - matches what i saw under my car)? Is it just for fuel evaporation control and/or fuel return line?

insanitybeard:
Do You have fuel system scheme available in ETIS? I would like to see what is where and check element by element, to see what is wrong.  I am looking for something like one attached below.

Is there any chance that there is cold cranking system ant it does not work properly? Car seems not to have any issues with starting, when engine is worm.

Another observation. Yesterday, i have started car with some problems than run on idle for 20-30 minutes (reading some parameters with Fordscan). Today, in the morning, car started from the very first try, without extensive cranking. A 3 more starts and short distance made 200m starting problem reoccurred. 15 minutes later i was not able to start easily again. 

[Chrispb]

Yes evaporative emissions, allows the engine to draw fumes from the tank under certain load conditions.


[attachimg=1]

[attachimg=2]

[januszt]

After 2 days of good starting (first attempt), car refused to start again. As before, i managed to make it running after a few good minutes of cranking with manipulation of fuel pump socket (green one, close to the charcoal can) and wires between socket and the pump. One additional remark: for these two days, each time before switching engine off, i was running engine on idle for 2-3 minutes with lights, radio and a/c off.

Observations:
- engine seems to be sensitive to the temperature. It starts without issues while warm - after short break (tanking fuel). When problem occurs, excessive cranking also helps to start in the end.
- while driving, there are no issues with fuel supply (engine runs continuously, without noticeable breaks)
- just after engine start (idling too) and while driving, uneven engine work can be observed (experience similar to 'missing' spark plug and cylinder not working properly). Behavior tends to calm down with engine warm up.

Unknown:
- what is the logic behind fuel pump initiation when ignition is on? Is always running or is there any loop back (sensor? ECU? compression feedback - IMRC? IMT? EGR?) which can make it not to start at all.
- can 'dying' pump work good while driving and only sometimes cause issues for start up?
- is there any differentiation from ECU/fuel system perspective between cold and warm start up?
- is it possible that fuel filter is gone and randomly disrupts fuel supply for engine start?


Assuming fuel pump/sender module inspection is needed, do we have alternative for dropping fuel tank? I am looking for solution like in mondeo, which has an option to reach it from interior.

Before mechanical check, is there any way(set of parameters) to diagnose fuel system components for root cause of the issue? Which OBD parameters should be chosen i such case?

Any support will be highly appreciated...

[insanitybeard]

Are you sure it's definitely a fuel system or supply issue? Can you check for any fault codes? I'm not saying there will definitely be any stored but it may give you a starting point. I'm assuming a petrol Mk3 Galaxy would have an electric throttle body for example, amoungst numerous other electrical actuators and sensors that if defective could cause running and/or starting issues.

[januszt]

I have started my (hi-)story in the other post:
https://www.fordmpv.com/smf2/index.php?topic=1959.0
Galaxy mk3 does not want to start.

Long story short: new throttle body installed (used one) and all errors are gone. I have checked with standard obd interface and profesional diagnostic interface.


I have also made some diagnostic check for new throttle body. I will postprocess results and share on the forum. Maybe I am missing something here...

[Chrispb]

Have you actually checked the fuel supply to the engine? try removing the fuel supply pipe at the engine.
Switching on the ignition should operate the pump for one second, this should be enough to pressurise the system.
Excercise caution here, try and direct fuel into container or some rag (no smoking etc)

[januszt]

Here is diagnostic check output i promised to share:
[attachimg=1]
Observations:
- parameters TP1 and TP2 seem to 'mirrored'  (is it normal?)
- TP1 and TP2 have slightly different shape (i.e. between 18-20s)
- TP1 and TPD have different amplitude (~4.3V vs. ~1V)
- just realized, that APP2 does not match at all to APP1. This is for both amplitude (0.4-0.9 vs 1.76 with one -12V pick) and shape (APP1 more little TP1 and TP2 where APP2 shows one huge negative pick to -12V) . Is it an evidence of pedal sensor(-s) to be gone? The same time, APP-FLT does not show any issues ("No fault" for whole session).

Answering question about fuel pressurization.

I have checked it before and there was no fuel in the system. Usually, when i have problem with starting, i cannot hear pump being started when ignition is on (that is why i have been asking all these questions in regards to fuel system logic ).

I can exercise fuel supply check again today. Just to be sure that nothing changed.

As far as recorded faults are concerned. Since last rest, there were no faults/errors. Meantime, i had problem with starting at least two times.

Just tried to start again - unsuccessfully. Below readings for TP and APP parameters. First one is just for 'dry' check - before cranking. Second is full  set: dry check and starting trials (i was pushing on gas pedal from time to time).

[attach=2]
[attach=3]

[januszt]

Car fixed (for good - i hope...).

Root cause for starting issue - failing fuel pump. Unit replaced (together with las section of the current supply cable).
In details: increased current demand was causing relay to switch off current immediately when ignition was turned on. Additional throttle body related errors were most likely caused by insufficient fuel supply (throttle body tried to operate in max open position but it was still not enough to cover fuel demand).

I have made ~2k km with new pump. No starting issues observed. I will be checking faults in a few days, to see if everything is ok there as well.

[Chrispb]