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What type of diesel fuel pump

Started by pointer, April 08, 2022, 06:42:51 PM

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I have a 2007 1.8 Diesel Ford Galaxy with a Zetec engine but I have a dilemma since the car will not start.  I called RAC who did some checks and concluded it was the in tank fuel pump that was at fault. 
I then arranged RAC to transport it to my garage who did some checks but their diagnosis was that the engine mounted pump was at fault and that there is not a pump in the fuel tank which would costs approx £1500 fitted including cam belt change, which is more than the car is worth.

After a fainting fit, the garage did some telephone calls which caused further confusion as one Ford garage were of the opinion there is an in tank pump on my model, but another Ford Garage stated there is not an in tank pump, only the engine mounted cam belt driven fuel pump.

Furthermore, my garage contacted 3 separate diesel pump suppliers who stated that they did not show an in tank pump, only the engine mounted pump.

My garage said that the only way to make certain would be to drop the tank (which is full and would probably lose some diesel in the process) but that would obviously result in an even higher cost.

My query is, does any one have any way of finding out if my car has an in tank pump or not ?

Probably easiest to take it to another garage, one that knows what they're doing.

I expect they're making assumptions about the car based on the engine and are assuming it's the same as a Mondeo.
I drive a Seat Alhambra 1.9Tdi which has 115bhp and an automatic gearbox.

I am happy to help you with all your questions. I am not a qualified mechanic but seem to be better at fixing my car than even the most experienced garages.

I have lots of friends here and very much enjoy talking with you all. Always remember, a motor car is a serious tool and should be treated with respect. Put your safety first, always.

Quote from: pointer on April 08, 2022, 06:42:51 PMI have a 2007 1.8 Diesel Ford Galaxy with a Zetec engine but I have a dilemma since the car will not start.  I called RAC who did some checks and concluded it was the in tank fuel pump that was at fault. 
I then arranged RAC to transport it to my garage who did some checks but their diagnosis was that the engine mounted pump was at fault and that there is not a pump in the fuel tank which would costs approx £1500 fitted including cam belt change, which is more than the car is worth.

After a fainting fit, the garage did some telephone calls which caused further confusion as one Ford garage were of the opinion there is an in tank pump on my model, but another Ford Garage stated there is not an in tank pump, only the engine mounted cam belt driven fuel pump.

Furthermore, my garage contacted 3 separate diesel pump suppliers who stated that they did not show an in tank pump, only the engine mounted pump.

My garage said that the only way to make certain would be to drop the tank (which is full and would probably lose some diesel in the process) but that would obviously result in an even higher cost.

My query is, does any one have any way of finding out if my car has an in tank pump or not ?

The parts list would probabbly be a good bet?

http://catcar.info/ford/?lang=en

You should be able to use that link to check against your vin?

You can use a pump to empty the tank usually - I've used one of these https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/255147317448 on the feed from the tank to empty it as far as you can on a dead car. There might still be a couple of litres left in the bottom, but that makes it much easier to handle.

Don't belive there is an access panel on the mk3 unfortunately.

Only other option I can think of is to compare to a working model the same as yours (take off the feed to the filter and cycle the ignition, see if anything is pumped up).

Thanks for the details on parts.  I entered my VIN and this indicates a part number 1500998 but when looking on google for the that  it states it is for a Mondeo, no mention of Galaxy!.

In addition, there is not an access panel from inside the car to remove it, so would the only way would be to drop the tank to find out?

Why don't they do why the RAC man probably did, and retrieve the fault code to find out which part has failed?

Or why don't they test the pump in the engine bay to see what's going on?

Or why don't they look for wires going into the tank to determine if there's a pump in there?

Or why don't they test the output of the fuel line before it gets to the engine bay?

Tbh they sound clueless, I'd just take it to another garage
I drive a Seat Alhambra 1.9Tdi which has 115bhp and an automatic gearbox.

I am happy to help you with all your questions. I am not a qualified mechanic but seem to be better at fixing my car than even the most experienced garages.

I have lots of friends here and very much enjoy talking with you all. Always remember, a motor car is a serious tool and should be treated with respect. Put your safety first, always.

Diagnostics probabbly won't point towards an in-tank pump, its likely its a dumb motor like the run on pump in earlier Galaxies that doesn't have any diagnostic capability.

Looking at the wiring running to the tank might be your best option other than dropping the tank to check, the amount of wires may give you enough to go on to decide what to do.

Usual indication of a pump in the tank would be lack of any sort of primer under the bonnet - I don't know the mk3, but is there anything like a soft bulb you squeeze to bring fuel up in the pipes leading to the filter? The Espace I've got has one, and I don't think thats got a pump in the tank as far as I know.

This listing does list Galaxy as well as Mondeo - and parts like this being the same across models is fairly normal - after all why make two different units where the same one can be used for both models, its cheaper that way

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/272376787579

However, that photo to me looks like a basic pickup and sender - Its hard to tell from the photo, but I don't see anything that looks like a pump there to me

Quote from: pointer on April 08, 2022, 06:42:51 PMI have a 2007 1.8 Diesel Ford Galaxy with a Zetec engine but I have a dilemma since the car will not start.  I called RAC who did some checks and concluded it was the in tank fuel pump that was at fault. 
I then arranged RAC to transport it to my garage who did some checks but their diagnosis was that the engine mounted pump was at fault and that there is not a pump in the fuel tank which would costs approx £1500 fitted including cam belt change, which is more than the car is worth.

After a fainting fit, the garage did some telephone calls which caused further confusion as one Ford garage were of the opinion there is an in tank pump on my model, but another Ford Garage stated there is not an in tank pump, only the engine mounted cam belt driven fuel pump.

Furthermore, my garage contacted 3 separate diesel pump suppliers who stated that they did not show an in tank pump, only the engine mounted pump.

My garage said that the only way to make certain would be to drop the tank (which is full and would probably lose some diesel in the process) but that would obviously result in an even higher cost.

My query is, does any one have any way of finding out if my car has an in tank pump or not ?

If it's the same as the Mondeo (very likely) you do _not_ have a lift pump in the tank.  Furthermore, the main pressure pump is lubricated and cooled by fuel, so continually grinding the starter to try to get it to run will guarantee the need for replacement of that item.  If you check your fuel filter, you should find that there is a hose barb on there.  It's for fitting a suction pump to pull fuel out of the tank after a filter change.  Needed because the main pump cannot pull air.  That is not definitive, as someone may have changed the filter housing for the wrong type.  But I don't know how they would get it started afterwards....

If you do have a barb, connect a suction pump, loosen the valve and pull fuel through.  If it won't come, I would suspect either a blocked filter or a leak allowing air in.

The £1500 for pump and belt is about right for new parts.  Sit yourself down.  A belt change on these engines from a Ford dealer will cost you the thick end of £1000.  There is an internal belt which means that all sorts of stuff has to come off and be replaced.  If you are not absolutely positive that this internal belt has been replaced less than about 100,000miles ago, it needs to be done as a matter of urgency.  They are well know to fail between then and the suggested limit of 125,000miles.  It is possible that your particular machine has a chain instead of the belt - but there's only one way to be sure....

Wow, £1000 for a cam belt change?  I got mine done for £250 on a 1.9Tdi and thought that was a rip off! I imagine the petroleum based models are more complicated? Also maybe it costs more at the main dealers because they have big overheads such as trainees who don't know what they're doing, flashy offices to pay for and so on?
I drive a Seat Alhambra 1.9Tdi which has 115bhp and an automatic gearbox.

I am happy to help you with all your questions. I am not a qualified mechanic but seem to be better at fixing my car than even the most experienced garages.

I have lots of friends here and very much enjoy talking with you all. Always remember, a motor car is a serious tool and should be treated with respect. Put your safety first, always.

Quote from: SirDavidAlhambra on April 12, 2022, 01:15:45 PMWow, £1000 for a cam belt change?  I got mine done for £250 on a 1.9Tdi and thought that was a rip off! I imagine the petroleum based models are more complicated? Also maybe it costs more at the main dealers because they have big overheads such as trainees who don't know what they're doing, flashy offices to pay for and so on?

The Op has a Diesel MK3 no petrol involved? Mike has explained what can be involved above, it would also depend if it was done properly (IE all the required bits replaced like tensioners etc) or just a new belt thrown on it. If you start getting in as far as water pump etc its not exactly difficult to see how it could add up, and if its an internal belt, the last thing you want to do is get back in there a second time to change something that should have been done the first time.

Go back and reread the Ecoboost thread and what Mirez posted there only a few months ago, Not sure if the internal belt is the same thing as a wet belt mentioned there, but it sounds to me like it probabbly is.

Sorry, I mis-read.

When I get the timing belt changed I think it's always important to also get the tensioner changed and the water pump too.

I love keeping my car in too top condition but lately it has developed some rust around the wheel arch and I'm not sure what to do about it as it could get pricey
I drive a Seat Alhambra 1.9Tdi which has 115bhp and an automatic gearbox.

I am happy to help you with all your questions. I am not a qualified mechanic but seem to be better at fixing my car than even the most experienced garages.

I have lots of friends here and very much enjoy talking with you all. Always remember, a motor car is a serious tool and should be treated with respect. Put your safety first, always.

If
Quote from: SirDavidAlhambra on April 12, 2022, 01:15:45 PMWow, £1000 for a cam belt change?  I got mine done for £250 on a 1.9Tdi and thought that was a rip off! I imagine the petroleum based models are more complicated? Also maybe it costs more at the main dealers because they have big overheads such as trainees who don't know what they're doing, flashy offices to pay for and so on?

It's not a standard belt on those engines they either have a wet belt or a chain. Not sure if there was a change over point between belt or chain but as Mike said the belts do fail. And it is a big job to change them it's not an hour or so PD engine type set up.

Ford tickets it at eight hours in the shop.  Not only the tensioner is replaced (debatable need, in my view) but basically the timing cover is a throwaway piece of thin steel with a built in oil seal as well.  Luckily, you don't need to do the water pump at the same time as you do with the PSA lumps, as you can access it without removing anything else.  But, as you are emptying the cooling system anyway.... 

There was a changeover in about 2007 from chain, as found on the MkIII Mondeos and equivalent Galaxys and Focuses, to the belt.  There was no service interval for the chains but one was implemented after the belts replaced them.  I can only assume that they had instances of chains failing.

Why choose these engines, then?  Small details: easy to block the egr.  I did it literally with a bit of bean can and there are no sensors to bring up dash lights.  Solves an off-the-line stumble.  No DPF is a big one.  We all know what nightmares they can be.  With a bit of fiddling, you can obtain stunning economy out of them.  It took me a while of messing with injectors and such but I can get close to 70mpg out of the Mondeo now.  From Sunderland to Berlin on one tank of fuel.  Not to be sneezed at.  Even now, after two years of short journeys, I'm getting just under 60mpg, averaged over the previous 2,500miles. It goes down around the houses but starts climbing again if I do more than about 20 miles.  All of this with no loss of performance if I need it but I do drive like a granny to get these numbers.  Driving the PSA galaxy the same way only gets me mid forties to fifty at best.

Anyway, the PO has a definitive answer - no suction barb on the fuel filter (if it's the right one) = a lift pump in the tank.  Barb on the filter = no lift pump and you need to suck the fuel from the tank to fill the lines up to the HP pump before it will start.

As I started this posting I think I had better update you all!  My garage had based there costings based on diagnostic codes that pointed to the main pump.  They were not entirely convinced, particularly as I had expressed my opinion.  They did look at photos of the in tank sender unit that some companies advertise as an 'in tank pump', and they were convinced that there is no way for that unit to have a pump.  In addition, they had traced cabling near the tank that indicated only two wires that would send a signal to the fuel gauge.

However, the garage owner borrowed a vehicle that had the same engine and swopped certain parts in rotation until he came upon a small device fitted to the bottom right of the 'diesel distributor' that sits on the front of the engine.  After a couple of engine cranks it started up!  He also took it for couple of miles spin without any problems, leaving us with a mobile car!  He did replace the parts to the borrowed vehicle!

Finally, as the vehicle is getting on in years and the latest MOT had several 'advisories', we decided to sell the car and replace it with a later version (late 2017) that we pick up tomorrow.

All is well that ends well, but thanks for all your replies.

Regards,

Bill

Finally, I have always understood that my 2007 Galaxy was a Mk3 that goes from 2006 to 2015, similar to Haynes manual.  As I have now bought a 2017 model, is that still a Mk3, or is a Mk4 ?

IIRC, that is a pressure sensor.  No signal from that would be a no start/no run scenario.

Model ranges are not clearly defined from Ford after the start of the MkIII in 2006, particularly as "facelift" models muddy the water.  There was a major body redesign(the MkIV) in 2015, after a facelift in late 2010.  The newest version was facelifted in 2020.

I have two vehicles that are right on the cusp of substantial revisions and it can be a right pain finding correct spares at some times, as Ford introduced/changed specs on some things before the full revision.