HELP PLS - VCDS has picked a few faults, before it stopped working.

[johnnyroper]

Here's a guide that shows what you are looking at.

https://www.fordmpv.com/smf2/ford-galaxy-reference-library/turbo-removal-115-pd-engine/

Can pop engine top cover off and get at it from up above as well just make sure engine is cold.

Italian tune up is basically warm engine up then go for a 15 minute drive at a steady speed in 3rd but keeping revs fairly high to get exhaust temp high. Then a few hard accelerations up to redline under load to blow that carbon out.

[johnnyroper]

Having said that as fault appears to have developed since cam sensor change make sure no vac hoses have been pulled off. Particularly the one at vac res by sensor plug and the ones around brake res area.

[fordnewbie]

Morning Johnny,

Thanks for the link, which I'll look at later.  Just to let you know, this fault of car going into limp mode has been on-going since I've purchased the vehicle, although the error code has only appeared after changing the cam sensor.

[johnnyroper]

That's strange it was going in to limp but not logging a code.

As mirez said classic signs of sticking vnt vanes so ecu cannot control the boost.

Best fix is described in link but it can be freed by hand when working the actuator,can also do it with vcds  https://www.fordmpv.com/smf2/ford-galaxy-reference-library/how-to-excercise-turbo-vanes-using-vcdsvag-com/  Although doing via vcds can be hit and miss if vanes are really coked up. There is also the mr muscle way which I have done before. Google mr muscle turbo clean for info.

[Chrispb]

I can't see how you can perform that test using measuring blocks? as far as I know you can only operate the actuator using output tests, you can also operate the egr valve and shutter flap aswell amongst others that I cant remember of top of my head.

[Mirez]

Measuring blocks won't do anything you are right, that just shows the info the ECU is using.

BUT, that how-to is using the Basic Settings function of VCDS not the MB, i suspect you need the full version but it should work as BS is used to initiate sensors and discover limits. CH11 will cycle the actuator from its minimum to maximum limits which will do the job providing its not too gummed up that vac pressure alone cant move it.

[Chrispb]

OK Mark thanks for that info, will try that method next time I get the laptop out.

[johnnyroper]

I did it with mine on output tests I think it raises rpm to 1400 then actuator cycles from fully closed to fully open.

[fordnewbie]

I've only got the old VAG software which is a trial version, so this exercise option is not possible 

[johnnyroper]

Need to try and manually exercise it when cold to get moving then give it a good blast. Failing that it is a strip down or me muscle job.

[fordnewbie]

Need to try and manually exercise it when cold to get moving then give it a good blast. Failing that it is a strip down or me muscle job.

I'll give it a go, thanks, but the link you've provided is showing how to totally remove the turbo:-

1. Exactly where is this movable bit located?
2. What does it look like?
3. Do I need to use a wd40 or something similar to get it moving?

[johnnyroper]

The link was to show you the area where you need to be looking.

The bit you need is the canister type thing with a rod coming out of it,where that connects to turbo is the bit you want to move,from up above look down back of engine it should just about be visible if top corner we and bulkhead extension are off. Try and push it down there should be some resistance but it should be free and move about 3/4 of an inch from stop position to fully pushed in.

No wd40 required as the sticky part is internal

[fordnewbie]

I'll give it a go, thanks, but the link you've provided is showing how to totally remove the turbo:-

1. Exactly where is this movable bit located?
2. What does it look like?
3. Do I need to use a wd40 or something similar to get it moving?

I've just taken a photo of the engine....can it be seen from here?

[Chrispb]

Heres a link to a video I done with the turbo on the bench

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M-8Kd7oDFTw

Here I'm using a spanner on the lever attached to the turbo vanes.

In situ you will struggle to get a spanner on the lever due to space available, you would need to raise car and remove undercover.
pulling the lever down to it's full travel it should return to the top under spring pressure but if it's really gummed up it's probably sticking half way.

I would be very surprised if you can reach it from the top of the engine as the inlet manifold is right in the way unless you have long gangly arms that can reach down the back of the engine and still be able to see what your doing.

[fordnewbie]

Thanks chris.  It seems like a difficult task, so I guess it's another trip to the garage.

Let's say I test the turbo vanes and it's getting stuck, then what next?

Likewise, if the turbo vanes aren't getting stuck and it's springing back fine, then what would I need to do then?

Lastly, could you kindly point to the location on my picture where this turbo & actuator is?

[johnnyroper]

You can just about get arm down back and on to the actuator,also with hand down back you can just about see what you are doing if viewing from by brake res area. Prob won't get spanner on it but I managed to push it by hand when mine stuck.

If it moves freely then I think you need to be looking elsewhere like checking bac system is Good and n75 operates correctly.

On your picture you can see EGR valve behind to oil filler cap the actuator is slightly to the left of EGR down the back.

[fordnewbie]

You can just about get arm down back and on to the actuator,also with hand down back you can just about see what you are doing if viewing from by brake res area. Prob won't get spanner on it but I managed to push it by hand when mine stuck.

If it moves freely then I think you need to be looking elsewhere like checking bac system is Good and n75 operates correctly.

On your picture you can see EGR valve behind to oil filler cap the actuator is slightly to the left of EGR down the back.

Thanks for your advice Johnny.  I tried to get to the turbo actuator, but as the photo (taken left of the EGR) below shows, I can't see anything that resembles an actuator.

[johnnyroper]

With bulkhead extension piece off and air box out look through from timing side and you will be able to just about see turbo. Locate the vac pipe on actuator to give you an idea where you need to be

[fordnewbie]

With bulkhead extension piece off and air box out look through from timing side and you will be able to just about see turbo. Locate the vac pipe on actuator to give you an idea where you need to be

Ahh right I see.  And all this time I've been trying to look for it behind the oil filler cap area   .  I'll be busy most of next week, but I'll give this a try and certainly let you know if I succeed in finding it.

Thanks again

[insanitybeard]

It's not the sharpest of images and you'd have to take the engine undertray off to see/ access this but the actuator is the silver canister just right of centre in the below image, accessed from the rear of the engine block. The actuator rod passes out of the top of this canister and can be operated by hand (if it's not seized!) - on a cold engine!

[attachimg=1]

[fordnewbie]

Thanks for the image mate.  That's great.  So the rod is the black curved fabric-type looking thing?

...Because I thought the rod looked more like this threaded one:-





Also some good news regarding VCDS  .  I've managed to borrow a friend's laptop which has VCDS-LITE 1.2 (Full) installed on it, which he uses for his KKL 409.1 cable.  Can I do any tests such as VC SCOPE or EGR or whatever you guys would recommend that would help you guys diagnose or even resolve this issue?

[insanitybeard]

The black curved thing you refer to is the vacuum feed pipe into the actuator. The actuator rod isn't visible in the image I posted as it's coming out of the far (top) side of the canister. The rod is indeed the threaded piece with the nuts on the left of your image.

[johnnyroper]

Go in to engine on vcds then select measure blocks, then group 11 and select basic settings. It should then raise your rpm to 1400 and cycle n75 which in turn should operate the vnt actuator its full amount of travel either way if it is free enough. On screen there will be the map readings displayed of what's happening if it's working ok they should be roughly the same as what VCDS says it should be achieving.

Once you have opened up the group 11 basic settings screen you will see what I am trying to explain.

[fordnewbie]

Go in to engine on vcds then select measure blocks, then group 11 and select basic settings. It should then raise your rpm to 1400 and cycle n75 which in turn should operate the vnt actuator its full amount of travel either way if it is free enough. On screen there will be the map readings displayed of what's happening if it's working ok they should be roughly the same as what VCDS says it should be achieving.

Once you have opened up the group 11 basic settings screen you will see what I am trying to explain.

Hello mate, I've followed what you said.  I've uploaded a youtube video to show you what is happening and hope I've done it right. 

Please note that the video sound is cutting off every few seconds due to a faulty mobile:-

https://youtu.be/xny_8Fm5JUM

So what do you suggest is the issue and what should I do next?

[johnnyroper]

That looks fine to me 999mbar 99% is normal 999mbar is atmospheric and 99% is ecu turning boost off.

1128mbar at 0.0% again is about normal 0.0 is ecu requesting boost and 1128 is about max it will make at 1400rpm unloaded.

It proves n75,vnt and vac are ok.

I would say you have either dodgy map at higher boost or clogged inlet to cause the over boost code and limp mode.
Are you able to log a group 11 test run in 3rd gear full throttle from 1200rpm-4000rpm on a flat road and graph it?
Details in ref library about logging and graphing.

And don't worry about beeping and glow light that's normal in basic settings

[fordnewbie]

I would say you have either dodgy map at higher boost or clogged inlet to cause the over boost code and limp mode.
Are you able to log a group 11 test run in 3rd gear full throttle from 1200rpm-4000rpm on a flat road and graph it?
Details in ref library about logging and graphing.

And don't worry about beeping and glow light that's normal in basic settings

So just to clarify,  you want me to drive in 3rd gear @ 1200-4000 revs and have vcds in group 11 basic settings?  Or do you want to see vc-scope???

[johnnyroper]

Yes log a run from 1200 rpm in 3rd with foot flat down up to 4000rpm.
The saved log then needs to be put in graph form to see what boost and duty cycle are like through the Rev range.

[fordnewbie]

Yes log a run from 1200 rpm in 3rd with foot flat down up to 4000rpm.
The saved log then needs to be put in graph form to see what boost and duty cycle are like through the Rev range.

Hi mate,

I tried to do what you advised on two occasions, but each time, eventually the traffic would force me to slow down.  However I think I got the info you required.

I've uploaded the .csv log files as I don't know how to convert these to charts in excel:-

http://www.filedropper.com/log-01-011-xxx-xxx

http://www.filedropper.com/log-01-012-xxx-xxx

[johnnyroper]

Sorry I can't view the files as in my phone and no program to open them,I couldn't even convert to xls either as laptop is in pieces at the moment.

[fordnewbie]

No worries buddy.

I've re-uploaded them to pastebin:-

LOG 11 - http://pastebin.com/iXGZrwmd

LOG 12 - http://pastebin.com/zWD9Yhes

[fordnewbie]

Not sure if I've done the charts correctly using the data from LOG 11 & LOG 12.  Please let me know what you make of it.

[johnnyroper]

Was your foot flat down when you did the log?

Hard to make out on phone but the actual is higher than specified then duty hits 92% which is limp mode ideally duty needs to be around the 80% mark. The ecu has basically lost control of boost.

The basic settings you did earlier proved vnt etc operated but that log suggests only partial movement of the actuator.

You really need to check it has got full movement now before going any further.

[fordnewbie]

I really need to redo this test on a motorway as my foot was not fully down due to traffic on the road  and I had to slow down on several occasions.  I'll try doing this test sometime tomorrow.

Btw, how do I check the actuator for full movement?

[johnnyroper]

You need to physically look at it and try to move by hand.
With engine off actuator rod should be at its longest and when you start engine it should pull fully in.

Try and get a run logged in 3rd with foot buried from 1200rpm and then graph that run

[fordnewbie]

You need to physically look at it and try to move by hand.
With engine off actuator rod should be at its longest and when you start engine it should pull fully in.

Try and get a run logged in 3rd with foot buried from 1200rpm and then graph that run

I don't think I can manually move it mate as it's difficult getting access to it. 

Also sometimes the vehicle runs fine when I put my foot down, however on many occasions it goes into limp mode and takes so long in reaching 4000rpm, that I have to slow down due to traffic ahead.

I'll try on a motorway tonight if possible though.

[johnnyroper]

It is difficult to get on to it but with bulkhead extension off it is just possible to get arm behind inlet manifold and push actuator down.

It has to over boost for a period of time before ecu puts in to limp,when mine was doing it sometimes it would seem ok it all depended how hard I was accelerating and for how long.

That's why the 3rd gear log from 1200 rpm to 4000rpm flat down is good as it shows how boost is building through while rev range. You do need a nice straight flat road that's clear of cars to do it accurately though.

[fordnewbie]

Really sorry for the late reply.  After a lot of difficulty (VCDS crashed) and numerous tries, I think I've got the info you required and did as you said 

LOG 20 - http://pastebin.com/pGLSGrjD
LOG 21 - http://pastebin.com/tdsxry32

Let me breakdown exactly what each one is:-

LOG 20
Hit the motorway and started vcds log at around 1300rpm.  Turbo did kick in, but I felt it lose it's power and fail at around the 2800-3200rpm.

LOG 21
As soon as I got off the motorway, I joined an A road with national speed limit.  I didn't turn the car off (As this would temporarily reset the problem) and decided to do a 2nd log from around 1000rpm in 3rd gear.  But it was very sluggish, hardly had any power or turbo kicking in and took a very long time to get to 3000rpm.





I hope I've done this correctly.

Regards,

[johnnyroper]

You can see low duty cycle and boost increasing as specified increases then actual spikes above specified this is normal and you can see duty cycle increasing as ecu is attempting to reduce boost by operating the vnt. However your boost is not falling with increasing duty like it should,the ecu gives it 3 seconds or so to reduce but when it does not you get limp mode.

At this point the next thing you really need to do is to physically check actuator movement. If the vnt is free through its full movement I would suspect map sensor is at fault or intake tract is restricted from build up of carbon

[johnnyroper]

Also just to add 2570.4mbar is max the map can read so it may well have been even higher,with boost like that the engine/turbo would be totalled if limp mode did not kill the power.

Sorry don't know if asked already but did you have any limp mode before the garage looked at cam sensor?

Are you 100% certain all vac hoses are connected and not kinked? Also check the hose from vnt to by brake res make sure the hose is not kinked and the filter is not blocked. This hose vents the vac to atmosphere from n75 to control the vac at actuator.

[fordnewbie]

Also just to add 2570.4mbar is max the map can read so it may well have been even higher,with boost like that the engine/turbo would be totalled if limp mode did not kill the power.

Sorry don't know if asked already but did you have any limp mode before the garage looked at cam sensor?

Are you 100% certain all vac hoses are connected and not kinked? Also check the hose from vnt to by brake res make sure the hose is not kinked and the filter is not blocked. This hose vents the vac to atmosphere from n75 to control the vac at actuator.

Hi Johnny,

The car going into limp mode was definitely there even before the garage had a look at it, however the actual code/error only appeared on VCDS after the cam sensor was replaced.

Are there any photo/video guides to show me how to check the hoses and also the actuator?  Also what is VNT?

[johnnyroper]

Not that I am aware of its just a case of removing bulk head extension piece for easier access and then tracing pipes from N75 on bulkhead to actuator and the filter. And also getting arm down the back to push actuator.

[fordnewbie]

No worries buddy.  I won't be able to look into this for a short period due to other duties, but I'll try and find sometime this weekend if possible and let you know how I get on.