Galaxy Mk2 TDI 1.9 intermittent starting problem

[Denis Vanbrussel]

Hi here, my old Galaxy seems to have an intermittent electrical problem:
Sometimes when turning contact ON, plug lights on as various lights, but no cranking, everything else seems to work.
Il seems to appear more frequently when warm. It usually starts after a few key turns, an irregular number...
Relay 109 was changed, many contacts were cleaned, starter switch was also changed ( by Ford agent, at great despair of my wallet... it was during vacations far from home...), Immobiliser box was also checked ( model with no relays)...
So I am in great despair maybe someone has an idea ?....
Denis

[johnnyroper]

Before checking/changing the parts mentioned was the actual starter motor checked? Could well be a failing now failed starter or a dodgy connection to the starter.

[Denis Vanbrussel]

Actually, when it decides to start, it is a perfect start, so I did not think it could be a bad power connection, but maybe I should check the control ones.
I first thought of a bad key switch, and sprayed contact cleaning stuff in it, and it seemed to stop the problem for a moment... so that's why I did not think of a starter motor problem.
Denis

[johnnyroper]

I would start with basics first,use a meter to check for decent earth at starter,if it is not starting get the meter on starter trigger wire and earth and check for power when trying to start.

[brianh]

It may be the solenoid side of the starter motor rather than the actual motor, this can work sometimes just fine, and other times refuse to work at all. If it is in a failed state you will not get any cranking to happen at all. Would be a replacement starter still to replace it, but they can fail in that way and appear intermittently dead like that, equally if the small wire to trigger the solenoid isn't well connected this could also cause the problem, in which case adjustment of the connector should help (not sure if its a spade type connector or a bolt on, if its the spade type then squeezing the connector up a bit tighter can help)

Equally if the fuse that supplies the ecu (its the bottom one on the righthand side on the petrol models, not sure on diesels) isn't seated right (or has been replaced with one that doesn't fit so well) this would cause the same thing to happen as if relay 109 was faulty. This appears to be a good one for a dashcam hardwire kit to go to until you find the circuits its supplying as it switches off with the ignition and is one thats easy to get a piggyback fuse into.

[Denis Vanbrussel]

I think a bad earth at the starter motor could never produce a clean start, as I have either a clean start or no start at all.... A bad earth there would give some grumbling starter motor noise ... at least some times...
Could be a bad earth in the control circuits...
I made other tests and noticed some straaaaange things that are other clues to an electric control problem, rather than a starter motor problem :
- when I stop the engine, I hear two different relay clicks just after the engine is actually stopped:
- a single click ( supposedly the 109 relay ) and the next start is OK, very direct, no problem at all... seems to be the normal behaviour.
- or two or three clicks with a different sound than the normal one... Then the next starting does not work, no starter motor noise, the starter motor does not even try to move, and the engine will eventually start after a few key turns....... and I found with horror that in this case other circuits are affected :
  the door locking is not effective if I press the button on the remote, the doors lock and unlock immediately !!!
BUT the door locking works if I lock via the driver's door lock  !!!!!
It seems the remote control receiver is also affected by this bug...
So do you know how is driven the starter motor solenoid ? Directly by the ecu or via a relay ?
I think I will have to check the connections to the ecu...
Denis

[brianh]

Don't know, but I'd say you either have broken wires in the drivers door gaiter, or a duff lock motor in that door causing the lock/unlock problem rather than anything more serious. Its not unknown for the boot wiring to cause other weird issues either if there is damage (stuff that sometimes should have nothing to do with the wires there).

What does the little red led on the door do in each setup? If its flashing rapidly this points towards relay 109 or an immobilizer issue (dying transponder maybe? Do you have another key?)

Starter motor as far as I know earths through its casing - provided the bolts are done up that shouldn't be an issue. But the feeds to it for the positive side (there should be 2 - the thick cable and the trigger for the solenoid) could be the problem, If you can get to it either a stuck solenoid or worn brushes may temporally be fixed with a sharp tap on the casing, but will be an indication the starter is at fault.

[brianh]

Haynes manual shows a relay for the starter - R191. That in turn is fed from fuse F25 then tracing back to the ignition switch then back to fuse F106. I've no idea if that R191 number actually relates to the number printed on the relay, but the wires running to it are all red and black on both sides of the relay and the fuse (If the manual is correct of course!)

[Chrispb]

K191 is relay 185 in position r14 in the fuse box.

[Denis Vanbrussel]

Thank you all for your replies !
I had no time to do further investigations, but I read the forum searching for similar problems people met, and I find many door wiring loom problems, and also timing belt sensor problem, as my timing belt was changed  two month ago, so I will check these points and keep you informed ...
Denis

[Denis Vanbrussel]

 
I could fix my problem !!! 
It was actually another variant of the door wiring problem: the wires in the loom had broken insulation  provoking intermittent short circuits that fooled the central electronics box. This caused some  sometimes straaaaannnge effects that made the fault finding difficult !     
I had a 2 hours wiring session, checking the 5 doors, and the most damaged wiring was the "baby's door" one, which was probably more often moved than the others...
The rear hatch door wiring was in perfect condition, surprisingly !
I also found that the first owner had problems as some wires were ( badly !) repaired.
So I made the repairs with good size wires and soldered extensions, adding heat shrink insulation ( I am in electronics, so I can make reliable soldering ), and now everything works perfectly on my car ! 
I waited a while to make sure the intermittent problem was gone, before posting ....
Thank you to all for your replies !
Denis

[Chrispb]