Catastrophic electrical failiure.. need help again.

[egg]

Been away from the forum for a while, but now am left with my head spinning.

I replaced the aux fuse box yesterday after reading about the issue. Leading to the diagnosis, my instruments started failing.

[attachimg=1]

1: no heated screens and no indicators.
2: no central locking.
3: a relay stated clicking along with what seem to be the flashing red door led/immobilizer led.
4: the interior lights started flashing along with the led.
5: car will turn over but not start. listening in the fuel lift pump isn't energizing any more.



Yesterday i had to pick up my daughter from school in the ice (minus temperatures) using hand signals.
Today after re-soldering and fixing all the joints in the tailgate and drivers door, hoping this will fix the issue, i checked for faults. There was an ABS pump fault, and that was it. Then on Trying to start, as i said it cranked but didnt turn over.

I took a vid https://1drv.ms/v/s!Aiz8xJ5kXRhqhKsrCo3wOt_rgcK94wof the relay clicking, the interior lights flashed along with clicking, thats my boy whinging in the background   

Im at a complete loss. Ive checked for similar issues on the forum with no success.

Left with no car, so any help ideas all appreciated greatly.

[Mirez]

Humm thats not sounding so good!

Are you unlocking with the key or remote? It sounds like the immobiliser is active which is triggering the alarm but without the alarm horn sounding but lets back up first because I am slightly confused with what you now have...

This list:

1: no heated screens and no indicators.
2: no central locking.
3: a relay stated clicking along with what seem to be the flashing red door led/immobilizer led.
4: the interior lights started flashing along with the led.
5: car will turn over but not start. listening in the fuel lift pump isn't energizing any more.

That happened before the fuse box replacement yeah? And changing that fuse box didnt resolve any of those issues but you now have another in that the car won't start?

I'd also like to clarify because your point 5 contracdicts the later text and I dont see the engine do anything in the video so, when you turn the key to start it will turn over but the engine never fires? Or does it fire and then die or does it not do anything? When you do turn the key, do all the instruments stay lit or does the panel die?

[egg]

Hi Mirez.

Yeah that was a bit unclear. The engine turns over but wont fire. There are no flashing lights and the lights go out as they should. It was driving fine up until my post, after i changed the fuse box. Then after i fixed the cables in the tail and drivers door it was still running. I could hear the fuel lift pump when i turned the ignition on previous.

Now there is no sound when i turn the key to on (without cranking).

The indicators were working when the relay was clicking, but kind of like they were not staying on long enough.

No fuel lift pump
No screen heaters
No internal lights
No hazzard lights/indicators
No central locking

As i said there are no faults being logged, and the only fuse i found blown was the aux heater (12) which had a 10amp fuse in instead of the 25amp one it is supposed.

Another problem is that i lost the second key, and even worse still, the locks dont match the keys, not that i can drive the car anywhere.

I replaced the rear brake cables the day before lol. Seems i inherited Frankenstein's hearse.

Im caught in the trap of spending so much time and cash, i just cant give in. 
   

[insanitybeard]

You mention replacing the engine bay fuse box, what did you do about the large diameter cable from the alternator that goes into the top of said fuse box?

[egg]

You mention replacing the engine bay fuse box, what did you do about the large diameter cable from the alternator that goes into the top of said fuse box?

I did a continuity test to the alternator and inspected the cable. It seemed fine so i reconnected it again, bearing in mind i had my daughter dropped off at school and had to pick her up. I literally got the part fitted with no time to spare to go pick her up.  I have read the recent post about re soldering the connections as a minimum. Is the cable a problem do you think?

[insanitybeard]

The cable is the cause of your problem in all probability, the fusebox burns out as a result of the resistance in the cable and the subsequent heat generated! The cable is the cause, the fusebox the effect. Simply replacing the fusebox will not cure the fault!

[egg]

So if i replace that cable completely, you think it may cure the faults?

[gregers]

that is the general consensus.

[insanitybeard]

Whether you replace or repair the cable is up to you, but the cable/s overheating is what led to the fuse box burning out in the first place, by only replacing the fusebox you have not addressed the root cause of the fault!

[Mirez]

That cable won't be causing those issues but as Paul says, it needs changing as it will only burn up the box again.

I'm wondering if you also have issues with the cabin supply calble, its not uncommon either and yours certainly isn't looking special from your photo. Assuming your battery is reasonably good, turn on as many consumers as possible - ie the radio, headlights, foglights etc etc. Then keep an eye and feel on the second large black cable to see how hot that gets.

Of the wires you repaired, how many were broken in two? You certainly sound like you have an immo/alarm fault going on. i'd revisit the drivers door if you have broken wires to ensure all they are all joined correctly.

[egg]

 

Will report back when replaced and soldered. Hope things are solved by this.

Thank you, and apologies if that seemed an obvious step. I'm a novice learning as i go along.

Will i replace the cabin supply cable as well whilst im at it then Mirez?

Regarding the wires, they were only stripped in places and 2 in the tailgate had repairs already. i just went to town on them and added in new bits where they were dodgey to make sure they didnt get over stretched and busted again.

In the drivers door, There were 2 wires that had the insulation split, that was all. I insulated them and that was all.

[Mirez]

It's normally the first 6 to 12 inches of cable that needs replacing, the effort of getting it back into the cabin would stop me replacing the whole thing but given the symptoms I would certainly cut off as much as comfortable and then solder on a new connector.

[insanitybeard]

Sorry, in my eagerness to respond I should have been a bit clearer about the possibility of one of the other cables (i.e, the engine bay fusebox to cabin central junction box supply cable) in the engine bay fusebox other than the charging cable itself as being a possible cause of the faults described.

[egg]

I will replace these cables tomorrow. Just figuring a way to connect them properly. Thanks for all the help again.

[egg]

Update:

I have replaced the cables and soldered the connections.

It Hasn't made any difference unfortunately

So, im back to square one again. Any thoughts on the relay that was clicking under the fuseboard?
or indeed any other advice at all would be great.

Im only a few miles away from here...

Shouldn't joke about it really as a woman walked into the bottom of the hole 30 years ago,  >:(and waited for the tide to take her and her kids

[insanitybeard]

What led you to replace the fuse box in the first place? You say that it started and ran ok before you changed it but presumably everything wasn't fine beforehand? Were the symptoms the loss of instruments etc described in your first post? Have you ensured your battery isn't duff or discharged? If it wasn't charging properly due to resistance in the cable then the battery itself could be worth further investigation, plus cold weather kills batteries that are borderline. A discharged or duff cell battery can give all manner of strange electrical symptoms, plus it wouldn't have enough juice to start the engine.

P.S, by the same token it's also worth making sure that the alternator is outputting and working properly, though you can't test that if the engine won't start! Checking/ testing the battery is still man enough to do it's job would be my next step.

[egg]

I checked the alternator for voltage drop etc, it is fine. The battery was replaced with a healthy 96Ah battery fully charged. i since charged the original battery overnight because it ran flat due to cranking excessively. 

Im afraid its looking like something else then the battery or alternator.

I could always hear the fuel pump run (the one that lift diesel  from the tank) when the ignition was turned on. That pump is no longer working as well. Im sure if it was the engine would fire, as it was running fine up until the pump stopped working.

That relay that was clicking.. would that be something to do with all these systems failing?

Kinda getting desperate now.

[insanitybeard]

When you replaced the fusebox did you renew all of the fusible links inside it or did you swap the old ones over? And what about the little blade fuses at the end of the fuse box? Are you happy that you've replaced the cables and fuses in the fusebox exactly as they were before? And you obviously had electrical issues before replacing the fusebox and these latest developments, so what's changed as a result of the work you've done? Just that it will no longer start?

P.S, how could you test the alternator output if the engine won't start? Or did you test it before it refused to start?

If you want to test the operation of the in tank lift pump then simply disconnect the fuel inlet pipe from the tandem pump on the end of the cylinder head and see if you get a good shot of fuel out of it when you turn the ignition on- mine isn't always audible.

[johnnyroper]

Have you checked you have voltage at each of the cables? I.e passing through the fuses?
Have you also checked the integrity of the cable that goes to fields box,do you have good voltage (preferably same as battery voltage) at the fuses in main box?

Is relay 30 (think it's 30 that can cause non start) working as it should?

[egg]

I tested the alternator when the engine was running after i replaced the fuse box and it was all fine.

The other systems failing happened excetly like this.

1. heated screen wouldnt come on
2. notice electrics were running off battery ( wipers slow, windows slow)
3. indicators and hazzards stopped working
4. abs light airbag light and battery light came on on the dash
5. Battery died
6. changed battery, checked voltage over terminals whilst running read just over 12v
7. changed fuse box
8. car started and ran however indicators and heated screens still didnt work
9. checked voltage over battery read 13.4v whilst running
10. drove car 2 mins up the road and indicators and screens started working again
11. got back tried to lock car, didnt lock
12. relay started clicking see video
***overnight
13. fixed wires in tail and drivers door clicking had stopped but doors not working indicators and heated screens not working.
14. checked diagnostics, no codes
15. left car running, checked fuses and found aux heater fuse blown so tried new fuse and the heater worked.
16. went in for tea came out tried to start car, didnt hear said pump car wouldnt start.
***overnight
17. replaced cables, put fully charged battery in.
18. tried car again wont fire.

Thats as good as i remember it 

[insanitybeard]

Relay 30 is found on the petrol models (or at least the 2.3) but not the diesels. Relay 109 is the diesel equivalent but I don't know if the engine would still crank if it was defective.

[egg]

Thanks for the help by the way. I know its a tough one. 

[insanitybeard]

The symptoms you are describing still sound like inadequate electrical supply (or earth!) to the various systems. The fact that the fault is affecting multiple electrical systems would tend to point away from specific relay faults and more towards common supply faults. The main internal fuseboxes on these vehicles aren't immune from problems either.

[egg]

The symptoms you are describing still sound like inadequate electrical supply (or earth!) to the various systems. The fact that the fault is affecting multiple electrical systems would tend to point away from specific relay faults and more towards common supply faults. The main internal fuseboxes on these vehicles aren't immune from problems either.

Where would be the best place to start then? The main internal box has a fuse board too then? Would i have to check the internal board next?

[insanitybeard]

I've never had the central junction box apart to know how it's constructed internally, or even how far it is possible to dismantle it, however I would expect there to be several busbars supplying the rows of fuses within the unit, as well as supplies to all the relays, mixed in of course with all the 'outgoing' circuit cabling from the unit.

[Mirez]

I concur with this, it sounds very much like a circuit fault however I would expect VCDS to be logging codes in the modules for low voltage yet you said there arent any?

You should be able to use the meausring block values within VCDS on both "Instruments" and "Central Electrical" to see what the supply voltage is, that'll give you a good idea what is getting to those controllers.

[bigdave982]

Shouldnt voltage when running be around 14v?

[insanitybeard]

It depends on the state of charge of the battery I think, the alternator output voltage should progressively drop as the battery reaches full charge. I think temperature plays a part as well, a cold battery can take a higher rate of charge. Perhaps @Mirez can explain better than me.

[Mirez]

14.2 - 14.4 is a healthy alternator voltage, 13.4 is still charging the battery but its going to be slow and with a load on may struggle.

[insanitybeard]

Does the regulator not decrease the alternator output voltage as the battery charge reaches saturation? This was one of the things that we were taught regarding so called 'smart charge' systems, which were also supposed to charge at a faster rate on a cold battery.

[egg]

I only have vcds lite. Would i need the full software to read all codes? The battery would not have been fully charged as when the first battery died, i ran the car with the new on the battery for around 10 mins without any alternator and realized then there was another fault not relating to the battery which led me to investigate the alternator and the fuse box. I then put the battery on charge again for about 3 hours until i replaced the fuse box, when i put the battery in it read ~12.9v and was id say about 75% charged and the car started immediately without any struggle. I then took another reading to make sure the alternator was charging the battery, im pretty sure it was 13.4v (could be remembering wrong) but at the time i was happy it was a big jump up rather then down as before. 

This morning the battery was fully charged and made no difference to yesterday.

Tomorrow i'll hook up vcds and do a scan to see has anything cropped up again. Any other suggestions on what to do?check?

Cheers.

Martyn.

[Mirez]

The Mk2 Galaxy isn't new enough to have smart charging in the true sence. The alternator will regulate the voltage to some extent but typically the alternator will put out 14 to 14.5 volts regardless. To clarify the other point you had, the cooler the temperature the higher the output voltage.

[egg]

I measured the voltage over the battery terminals with engine running. That must mean the battery was charging still. Im sure the battery's internal resistance would lower the voltage when charging and display a voltage lower then the charge rate. Please correct me if im wrong. Been 20 years since leaving cert physics.

[insanitybeard]

The Mk2 Galaxy isn't new enough to have smart charging in the true sence. The alternator will regulate the voltage to some extent but typically the alternator will put out 14 to 14.5 volts regardless. To clarify the other point you had, the cooler the temperature the higher the output voltage.

I was thinking that the Mk1 Focus which emerged in '98 was about the first Ford to have 'smart charge' and that the Mk2 Galaxy emerged slightly after that, but then of course the Galaxy is a VW design so wouldn't have had the same system.

Regarding VCDS, I don't think you would need the full version in order to see any/ all stored fault codes though it may limit the number of measuring blocks that you are able to see, no personal experience of that though. It's fair to say that if the engine was cranking well off of a battery that you had fully charged yourself prior to testing then alternator output and condition isn't the cause of the non start, however if you still have points of resistance in the electrics and cables supplying the various electrical circuits (especially the high load ones) then it's still possible that the required amount of power isn't getting to where it needs to go.

Have you checked that the main earthing points onto the chassis from the battery -ve are secure and clean? Relay 109 faults as I understand it won't throw up a fault code but could prevent starting as that relay energises several systems required for the engine to run- a little more on it here.

[egg]

Many thanks For the info. Will check all the earths and cables in depth today before i start pulling out relays etc. Ill also check if fuel is at the tandem pump and priming. Its just where to start... SO many things have failed, they surely are connected as you say to a main power fault.

[egg]

Just did a voltage check at the fuses on the main fuseboard, and all seem fine except for fuse 25 (30amp) :

25, Green, 30amp
Fuel Supply, Starting, ECU (V6), Automatic Transmission, PATS Immobiliser

I checked with the key to all positions and when cranking, there is no power at the fuse, and the fuse is intact.

Is there a circuit i can check? Im just looking at tha haynes now, but its a bit overwhelming.

[johnnyroper]

Think you have found your problem,so there is no feed either side of the fuse? Can you access the rear to check the wires? Just wondering if this is supplied by one of the cables in battery box or if the main red one to inside feeds all fuses in central electrics?

[egg]

I cant get vcds to connect now. tried re-installing the software but no joy. Could be my laptop mind. The usb ports sometimes are sketchy. Yeah, its looking like it has to do with the feed to this fuse, maybe when the ignition barrel was changed somebody didnt make a good connection or earth.

My mate says it is likely an bad earth, same as what ye have said here. He has a vag code reader (dont know what) that he says will bypass the immobilizer so im very tempted to call in his help, see can i arrange a favor and pay when i have it. 

Do you think  drop the fuse panel and check behind to see if there is power to the fuse? Really stumped here.

[Jim Redmond]

My thinking (going by what your saying) would be that if I pulled the chip out of my key (immobiliser chip) that I wouldn't have power here either, if it helps, I'll try this for you this afternoon

[johnnyroper]

I can't see it being an earth you checked for feed at fuses and all were ok so proves you had an earth, the one that has no live I can only see it being an issue with the battery box wire or a relay not energising with ignition on loss the relay or feed to coil from ignition switch.

You need to get bottom of dash of I reckon to do some more testing

[Chrispb]

Just did a voltage check at the fuses on the main fuseboard, and all seem fine except for fuse 25 (30amp) :

25, Green, 30amp
Fuel Supply, Starting, ECU (V6), Automatic Transmission, PATS Immobiliser

I checked with the key to all positions and when cranking, there is no power at the fuse, and the fuse is intact.

Is there a circuit i can check? Im just looking at tha haynes now, but its a bit overwhelming.

Fuse 25 30amp is only powered when you actually attempt to start the engine, the fuse is fed from terminal 5 on the ignition switch connector but as you seem to be having intermittent faults on other services it would seem there is high resistance in the supply to the interior central fuse box now this could be at the central fuse box but more likely the battery fuse box.
Have you already repaired/replaced fuse box, and replaced or if not to badly burnt solder the two large black cables, the one nearest the battery being the alternator cable and the second the feed to the central fuse box.

Oxidation causes a high resistance between the crimp terminal and the cable (common problem) the high current load on these cables  makes the crimp terminal get extremely hot which in turn melts the plastic fuse box.

[egg]

Fuse 25 30amp is only powered when you actually attempt to start the engine, the fuse is fed from terminal 50 on the ignition switch but as you seem to be having intermittent faults on other services it would seem there is high resistance in the supply to the interior central fuse box now this could be at the central fuse box but more likely the battery fuse box.
Have you already repaired/replaced fuse box, and replaced or if not to badly burnt solder the two large black cables, the one nearest the battery being the alternator cable and the second the feed to the central fuse box.

Oxidation causes a high resistance between the crimp terminal and the cable (common problem) the high current load on these cables  makes the crimp terminal get extremely hot which in turn melts the plastic fuse box.

Yeah Chris, i replaced the box. Cut back the lead to alternator about 18 inches and soldered the connection back on. I cut back the 2nd black lead about 15 inches, and soldered new connections on and added 18 inches of lead. I made a new lead from the positive battery terminal to the fuse box as well, with soldered on connections. I checked the main earth to the battery and cleaned it up. I cecked the voltage at the battery and at the end of the new leads and there was no voltage drop. Also the voltage at the fuses in the main fuseboard were all the same as the battery. I tried the fuse 25 with the key in all positios and whilst cranking but no power.

[egg]

I can't see it being an earth you checked for feed at fuses and all were ok so proves you had an earth, the one that has no live I can only see it being an issue with the battery box wire or a relay not energising with ignition on loss the relay or feed to coil from ignition switch.

You need to get bottom of dash of I reckon to do some more testing

I had the dash off to look at the earths and relays. Relay 53 i could feel working whilst turning the ignition. None of the others seem to do anything from feeling them.
I have to call it a day now as i have no garage. I rang my friend, and hes bringing the truck over tomorrow morning to pick her up.
Hopefully he and his mate know their stuff and can get to the bottom of it quickly. A very tricky thing to try to diagnose, i was hoping for a simple cure but hey-ho.

Updates will follow

[egg]

Update:

Seemingly the immobilizer was activating and preventing the engine start. The chap replaced a few fuses, which were preventing power to the ecu diagnostics, and then deleted the immobilizer.

He just got the car back on the road for me, there is still some faults he said. An abs fault has developed, and he said theres a fault with the steering column. He was also baffled by a switch which is retro-fitted in the dash next to the headlight switch.

The electrical fault, intermittently is manifesting again of which i have a video now. The most logical explanation going by his experience, is that theres a bad earth somewhere causing the issues.

He tried to bring up a diagram showing the earth points, but he didn't have the galaxy available.
I checked the main earth to the engine, and a few in behind the fuse fascia panel.
He mentioned that it could be the b pillar, but couldnt give any more info. the fella was busy and was doing a favour sorting the car asap.
So even though the car is driving, the fault with the locking etc is still there so any help, or even better a diagram where the earth points are would be great, at least as a starting point anyway.

https://1drv.ms/v/s!Aiz8xJ5kXRhqhKs4ONnGQ-o-RcRAmw

Thats my friend talking there. He didnt realize i was videoing.

[egg]

Update2:

Theres a vibration in the steering column now, also more noticeable when doing slow maneuvers. I cleared the abs code but it keeps coming back.
Also central electrics threw up some codes, however they didnt return  yet after clearing them.

central electrics
4 Faults Found:
00988 -  Lamp for Brake Light; Right (M10)
        30-10 -  Open or Short to Plus - Intermittent
00984 - Shareware Version. To Decode all DTCs
        30-10 - Please Register/Activate - Intermittent
00985 - Shareware Version. To Decode all DTCs
        30-10 - Please Register/Activate - Intermittent
00987 -  Lamp for Brake Light; Left (M9)
        30-10 -  Open or Short to Plus - Intermittent
ABS brakes

1 Fault Found:
01276 -  ABS Hydraulic Pump (V64)
        16-10 -  Signal Outside Specifications - Intermittent

I'm not a great advertisement for Galaxys