Hi I'm about to scrap this car if I can't get to the bottom of this
Sharan 1.9 tdi on a 59 plate engine code BVK
Car takes a while to get upto 85*c when driving never gets to 90 on dials even tho live reading can be seen going upto 104*c when revenge it if I've been driving and gets upto 85 if I pull up at work within 10 mins the temp goes below 50 and I can't figure out why? Last night I put on a brand new timing belt kit with water pump (metal propeller) and I've already put in brand new engine coolant temp sensor (from VW) and I've already put in a brand new thermostat/thermostat housing and seal (from VW) and its still the same only thing that I haven't been able to change was the Aux heater as when I took it off and stripped it all the bolts snapped ect so was unable to put it back on I just replaced the pipes to bypass the aux heater but surely that shouldn't make the temp go from 85 to below 50 within 10 mins at idle? Any thoughts would be much appreciated as I'm ready to scrap this car and buy something different. Thanks oddballsicknote
In the current temperatures, yeah pretty much!
The PD engine is super thermal efficient, it's one of the reasons it was so fuel efficient but the downside is there is little waste heat and it's not capable of sustaining 'normal' operating temperature at idle. You can start these from cold and let them idle for an hour or so and you still won't have heat!
Without a working aux heater it's not uncommon for it to take about 20/30 minutes to get up to temperature although lots of factors feature including the type of driving, ambient temp and how much you are 'taking' for the cabin heater.
Something that makes a huge difference is to insulate the rear heater pipes. If you look under the passenger side of the car, these run from the front to the back (the one's you have bridged). When they get to the back the heat is exchanged into the cabin and so by the time its done this loop, the returning temperature is very low. Standard 15mm pipe lagging fits fairly well and you can just cable tie them on - I think I needed 6m when I did mine although it was about 10 years back but they are about a quid from Wickes or the like so inexpensive.
Finally, the gauge on the dash is full of lies and deceit :) In VW's wisdom, rather then have it move about with temperature fluctuations, they wrote the software to hold steady over a fixed range (85-105 IIRC). What this means is that it won't go above 90 until it gets above 105, and it won't show 90 until it gets to 85. They also aren't set perfectly from VDO so it could be your indicated 85 is the 'vw happy spot'. If you have VCDS then run a gauge test on the cluster, each needle will do a full sweep and then sit at its mid-point which should show you where it "thinks" 90 is!
Hi mirez thanks for the reply but my sharan 1.9 super efficient engine gets around 22-32mpg never more its very poor on fuel motorways 32 around the doors 22 that's what's making me think there's more than meets the eye with this car I've spent a small fortune since I've had it but can't get to the bottom of why it's not at 90 on the gauge and why the poor fuel economy I'm starting to think maybe it's been remapped so better performance and maybe that's ehy it's poor on fuel but don't think there's a way to check I do have VCDS and already done the instrument cluster activation does all the gauge sweeps ect and I've bridged the ect sensor and the gauge goes to max I just can't get my head around this I'm almost at the point to where I'm gonna scrap it call it a beat one and get something else that's more fuel efficient but staying with the vag group I may bypass the heater pipes all together so the coolant won't circulate to the rear and see how it goes?
Thanks oddballsicknote
22/32 is way off where it should be but I doubt its a remap (unless it was a back street wannabe). My 115 is remapped at 145 and averages 41mpg, although it will get near to 50 on a motorway jaunt - not to gloat, that's for reference! :)
With VCDS, after its done the gauge sweep for the temperature, does it sit at 90 or 85?
I've had issues in the past with PD injectors failing that allows fuel to essentially pour though, if you go into the engine ECU and measuring blocks you can see the deviation quantity for all 4 so I would certainly have a look there. I'd also consider logging the MAF specified vs actual (there is a how-to on this in the library) as they are a known failure over time and cause poor fuel economy although you normally also notice its got sod all power at that point! A couple of runs logging different things would be useful as it should show anomalies reasonably well.
Personally, I wouldn't be overly concerned with the low temperature readings at the moment. Chin up!
My 53 reg tdi130 was very slow to heat up, and cooled down really quickly. On rare occasions I had the auxiliary heater working, it was better, but doing stop start driving soon killed the auxiliary heater off in plumes of smoke.
I did door to door deliveries in mine for years, used as a van and often overloaded, never ever less than 35mpg delivering, about 50mpg pottering on holiday and even when thrashing it (Leeds to Ramsgate in under 3.5 hours) used to do 43 to 45mpg.
Fabulous engine, great car, but rust and leaking high pressure pump killed it , shame 😥
Has your car got an auto box with a heat exchanger fitted? Reason I ask is the live data reading showing 104 degrees suggests thermostat is working as you would never get that temp with a failed stat on a PD engine unless it was stuck closed but then temp wouldn't drop so fast either.
Dropping temp at idle to below 50 seems quite a drop to me. Recently had a beemer with slow warm up and temp dropping on idle that was the auto box heat exchanger thermostat allowing constant cooling of box oil so coolant temp plummeted. New exchanger sorted it out.
Thanks for the replies I will personally send who ever can get to this a £50 bank transfer or PayPal or what ever to who can solve this car as its doing my head in lol I did forget to mention 2 things it's a manual so no auto box heat exchanger? And I did do the repair on the electric water pump few months ago and that's still working as I can hear it run for a few mins after I switch engine off.
I really want to keep this car if i can get decent mpg out of it and sort this heating issue out as bad weather is coming but don't want to spent a fortune on it as I could be putting that money into another car question is who's up for a challenge? I do have VCDS will get screen shots tomorrow for Mirez to look at guages and injectors
That's another possibility ruled out then.
My old PD once up to temp it would drop slightly on idle but not to same extent as yours even when aux heater was knackered, what are the heaters on when you are idling?
Once it gets to 85 the heater are hot keep them on 2nd bar so blows gently and they do cool at bit when temp gauge goes down it's got me baffled at mo to why it goes down so quick within 10 mins to below 50
Could it be the thermostat sir, if you have the AC on maybe it is cooling down the coolant all the time.
My Alhamb goes around with the engine really cold almost all the time. They just don't seem to warm up.
Hi SirDavid it's got a brand new thermostat, housing and seal from VW and the air con doesn't work anymore so fan doesn't come on (used to when I got it back in March last year)
Quote from: Oddballsicknote on January 30, 2022, 11:26:23 PM
Once it gets to 85 the heater are hot keep them on 2nd bar so blows gently and they do cool at bit when temp gauge goes down it's got me baffled at mo to why it goes down so quick within 10 mins to below 50
The getting cold quickly could also be down to the run on pump pushing coolant round after the engine has stopped, right through those long bare pipes that run under the car which Mirez pointed out. I've got a petrol powered one and whilst the heater on that is fine once your running, it soon cools down when its sat for an hour or more.
A/C even if it was working shouldn't make any difference unless theres a problem with the flaps in the heater box. Even then, the heater matrix should still provide hot air even if its gone through the evaporator first.
It sounds to me like the new thermostat could be dodgy,opening correctly but not closing as coolant temp lowers. With car up to full operating temp leave to idle until temp drops to 50 with heater on and clamp the rad hose from stat housing and see if temp starts to rise again.
Another thought does it suffer any pressurisation in the cooling system and is the small bore return hose to top of header tank allowing a small flow of coolant back in to the tank?
Brian the temp goes down whilst the engine is still running on idle 10 mins it goes to below 50, Johnny that small plastic valve that returns to the expansion bottle was blocked a while ago so I drilled it out but only had a big drill bit at the time maybe it's bleeding to fast?
Quote from: Oddballsicknote on February 01, 2022, 02:14:15 AM
Brian the temp goes down whilst the engine is still running on idle 10 mins it goes to below 50, Johnny that small plastic valve that returns to the expansion bottle was blocked a while ago so I drilled it out but only had a big drill bit at the time maybe it's bleeding to fast?
That actually might be some of your problem, I think its only supposed to have a trickle going through there to allow air to escape to the tank from the system, it should just have a slow trickle though that route. Usually no flow is down to the water pump impeller spinning on the spindle rather than being fixed to it as it should be. If its pouring through there your losing quite a bit to the expansion tank. I'd guess that ends up going to the radiator etc at that point, in any case it would reduce whats going to the heater I'd think.
It might be worth comparing the radiator temp to the coolant on the other side of the thermostat? It does also sound like the pipe lagging idea migth be worth considering, Alternatively you might be able to loop the hoses at the front end near the run-on pump? Trouble is with the rear heater you have quite a lot of coolant in the system on the heater side compared to most cars as well. 9.5 litres if Haynes is to be believed.
Thanks Brian there's a scrap yard along the road from me I'll nip in tomorrow and get another pipe with the restrictor in and try it also I was gonna get a 15mm u bend and remove the rear heaters out and see how the heating goes and will post on here some photos of vcds and recording times and temp plus outside air temp so know if there's anything I'm missing :)
It was nearly 10L when I did my flush so that sounds about right Brian. The rear heater run is incredibly inefficient by design, I do remember measuring the temperatures before I lagged mine but I don't overly recall what the offset was but 27*c rings a bell - that's a lot to be dropping from that route. If you have no plans to fix the aux heater then the run is pointless anyway, the coolant would need to be right up to temperature to be noticeable coming out of the rear matrix so bypassing it at the front is a good shout. The run-on pump is there to push water down that route (and provide hot-spot relieve on switch off on the 90 and 115 engines) so you could disable that for the moment as well if you want to try.
How you had time to do some live logging yet?
Managed to get VCDS working again been a while since I last used it but I did take around 30 pics and of course the temp did go up to temp and stay there as it was 12*C outside which was odd as every other time the temp goes down did see a pattern in temp once got to 90 stayed there for a while (stat opened) then it went to around 97and kept dropping to 90 could hear fans on and off and temp was going uotp 97 till it dropped sods law gauge didn't drop this time but mustn't be too cold is there a way I could upload 30 pics?
Some pics
You'd be better creating a log and uploading that so I can plot it as a chart for you. You are in the right area, just hit the "Log" button at the bottom and VCDS will create a file for you that you can upload here :)
Hi mirez is it best doing it from cold? Revving it till it gets to temp or driving it?
From cold, driving normally until you get to operating temperature (or in your case, a close approximation :P )
Hi Mirez i logged a drive today only 10 miles Approx then let it sit for a bit and seen the gauge going down again find attacted
Just calculated my MPG it's bad lol
Years ago I owned a Ford galaxy 1.9tdi 2001 model and it was superb on fuel do 800 miles on a good run on motorway (doing steady 70) or 400 around the doors was brilliant car......till head gasket went lol so just confused to why same running gear gets so poor fuel consumption maybe vw software compared to Ford?
If it's any help, I was driving my Alhamb for about 45 minutes yesterday and the coolant temp got up to about 60C and the oil temp was about the same. I look after my Alhamb very well and I think these cars just run really really cool.
I normally put 10w40 in but may look at a 5w40 or even 0w40 if such a thing exists and at a reasonable price. There is never any downside to having a lower first number for the oil, even at cool temps it will always be more viscous than how it is at the high temps (with a few rare exceptions, oil always gets runnier as it gets hotter) but with a lower number less so.
I wouldn't go playing about with oil on a pd especially with higher miles,your camshaft will not thank you for it. Stick to the correct vw 505 specification which I seem to recall is 5w40
Thank you Brian, very wise advice as always. This is the oil I use: TRIPLE QX 5W-40 PD Engine Oil - 5Ltr
I will make sure I keep to the manufacturer's specification, very sensible approach
[THANKS]
As JR says above, oil is critical on the PD engine as the camshaft is worked incredibly hard on these and the galleries are tight so the lubrication properties of the oil break down quickly hence the need for oil that will stand up to the shear forces for service length. In short, don't go F'ing about with the spec! :P
Ironically it's possibly this is the OP's issue. Having looked over the log the first thing I notice is that the ECU is POURING diesel in, the injection duration should be to a tolerance of +7 but you are logging +25.5 in some instances (Which I believe is actually a software limit so it could be even higher). The log also shows you MAF is working pretty well but the injector deviations are quite a way out, number two is heavily retarded which looks like compensation for number four which is over fueling.
I would consider swapping injector four out but first, log torsion value and injector start timing against TDC. Those values will help to confirm that the timing belt is timed up properly. After that I would pull the cam cover off (which is fortunately easy on these) and have a good look at the camshaft for wear.
I'll have to price up an injector, I can guarantee the timing is perfect as I done it myself the other week along with water pump locked crankshaft and the camshaft pin pushed in with no effort (after a little bit of adjustment) I bought the timing tool off amazon for 25 quid, think it cost me 120 for timing belt kit, water pump, anti freeze (5L) and couple tine of brake cleaner
Did you slacken the cam sprocket bolts when refitting the belt?
Yes had to as they cam was fully rotated clockwise so slackened the bolts when put new belt on and timed it up and retightened the 3 bolts, turned over a few times and checked timing and had to adjust cam slightly, turned over again and timing was perfect.
Oh ok so when you locked crank it was a revolution out then but you left that locked and spun cam a rotation instead?
It's possible the torsion angle is out then,these engines can be quite sensitive to that changing,mine didn't run the greatest until I tweaked that. Get up to full operating temp with all electrics switched off and check what torsion angle is
Agreed, that's why I'd like to see the Torsion value and Injector Start position from a VCDS log before much else is done :)
How do I log injectors? Torsion?
Just like you did for the previous log run, just pick those instead. I think they are both in Group 4.
https://www.fordmpv.com/ford-galaxy-common-faults-and-problems/ford-galaxy-mark2-torsion-value-checkadjust-(1-9tdi)/
Have a look at this thread I did a while back about torsion value
Interesting read JR I will look into that tomorrow and I'll upload a log as well Mirez, I was looking at no4 being high as well as no 2 being low but wasn't too sure what they should have been at I can get a 2nd hand injector for round £30 each as well as buying a kit off ebay with the seals washers ect for when I change them but I'll upload a log and see what yous think as it looks like we're getting somewhere now I do love the car as its ideal size and be absolutely buzzing once its sorted there is still a few other problems with it that's easily fixable but when I phoned scrapyard along road from me he wanted numbers off old injectors and I did ask if he had an aux heater in, he replied yes from an 08 model but wasn't sure if it was working or not or what the part number of it was but could be a gamble if its cheap enough?
Quote from: Oddballsicknote on February 03, 2022, 02:41:59 PM
Some pics
On your heater the last pic shows the control panel to be clogged with dust - That might not be a bad idea to look at as it won't be helping any. Guide on pulling it out to clean here
https://www.fordmpv.com/ford-galaxy-common-faults-and-problems/galaxy-climate-control-system-fan-changes-speed-irratically-(mk2)/
As the cabin temperature is sensed from there, if its clogged up with dust, that will make the detection somewhat erratic. Also a job I need to do on mine as it happens.
Quote from: SirDavidAlhambra on February 06, 2022, 02:35:46 PM
Thank you Brian, very wise advice as always. This is the oil I use: TRIPLE QX 5W-40 PD Engine Oil - 5Ltr
I will make sure I keep to the manufacturer's specification, very sensible approach
[THANKS]
I didn't say anything on this previously, but would suggest as others who are used to the PD engines, use the correct spec only. Theres enough posts around with details of what happens if you don't, and once the damage is done, your into a camshaft and all the associated work to get into it/belt and gaskets etc to put it right again.
Quote from: Mirez on February 07, 2022, 04:04:11 PM
Just like you did for the previous log run, just pick those instead. I think they are both in Group 4.
Hi Mirez i done a log today Group 4 from cold gave it a run down motorway and back till got up to temp hopefully you can see something good [THANKS]
So my interpretation of that log is that the fueling is all ATDC, in other words its not until the piston has reached the top that the fuel is injected and again it shows 25.5* ATDC at one point which is just nuts. I'm not familiar with how to adjust that though, possibly one of the other chaps can advise nut there is a little info here as well:
https://www.vwaudiforum.co.uk/forum/archive/index.php/t-167287.html
OddBall;
I see it says you're in the North East?
Where about's, as I know a guy who is an absolute wizard with VW's & VCDS/fault diagnostics just near Chester-le-Street outside of Durham.
He's well worth the travel if you're willing to put time and effort (and money!) into fixing it!
Quote from: Mirez on February 09, 2022, 05:33:11 PM
So my interpretation of that log is that the fueling is all ATDC, in other words its not until the piston has reached the top that the fuel is injected and again it shows 25.5* ATDC at one point which is just nuts. I'm not familiar with how to adjust that though, possibly one of the other chaps can advise nut there is a little info here as well:
https://www.vwaudiforum.co.uk/forum/archive/index.php/t-167287.html
Is that what the torsion value adjusts when you tweak the cam position in relation to the crank? Technically you aren't moving the shaft position as that's locked along with crank it's actually the sprocket position so timing of injector firing is adjusted as the cam sensor detects the little notches on the sprocket.
I think so but then the torsion value looks fine which is where the confusion comes from, given the current issues I'd probably mark up and then adjust the torsion so see what impact it has and if the fueling can be bought back closer to spec by doing so.
I think I would be inclined to have a check for cam lobe wear and if that looks ok tweak torsion to slightly advanced and see what it's like then.
Think my first step would be take rocker cover off and have a look inside and see if the cam is worn and have a look at injectors see if there adjusted properly as I have a feeling someone's had a mess around and maybe it's something obvious inside if not I could adjust timing if all fails I could ask your friend if he could have a look as I'm almost done with this motor as I keep finding faults with it (mostly electrical) I've been looking as same shape sharan but 2.0L without the headaches lol
Truth be known, you just can't beat the 1.9 litre Alhamb. So comfy and practical. Main thing is to change the oil frequently and to put good brakes and tyres on it. Also change the radio for a DAB one.
The car only has a few weak areas which are:
- Aux heater never works
- Front inner CV joint wears out every now and then and most garages are unable to spot this problem
- Turbo vanes stick every 125,000 miles and reconditioned turbos don't work so make sure you get an original
- The wiring to the back doors always goes brittle and breaks, which can be fiddly to repair if you have large hands but is otherwise easy to fix
- Sometimes you can get a bit of rust at the bottom of the wheel arch because there's a bit that collects mud and water
- Kids can bypass the switch that controls the rear electric windows if they repeatedly press the window switch and nudge it all the way down in 5mm increments
However features such as the comfy seats, good engine, heated front window, heated seats and the size and the practicality of the vehicle more than make up for all that. Plus you'll be the coolest cat in town driving one of these stylish and practical motors!
8-) 8-) 8-)
Finally got around to looking at engine removed the rocker cover and can't see anything out of the obvious I've took some pics but not sure weather to risk a 2nd hand injector for no4 cylinder and see how it goes or just run it in to the ground till I get a Seat Alhambra Stylance?
Can't seem to find the attach pic buttons anymore? Using new phone and it's displayed different so can't upload pics?
Yes I had that issue too, what I did was post the message then "modify it" and then it was possible to attach piccies
You need to use the reply button below the last post, you cannot use the quick reply box for attaching photo's.
I've only got the option to quick reply?
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Pictures are on my phone?
Quote from: Chrispb on March 05, 2022, 07:16:05 PMYou need to use the reply button below the last post, you cannot use the quick reply box for attaching photo's.
Go to preview then gives me the option to attach pictures 📸
Hard to tell from the pictures but it looks like there some putting on the lobes?
Did you spin engine over by hand and inspect the profile of the lobes?
Like johnnyroper said, it's hard to tell from the images due to the definition and reflection of the flash but in one image in particular (which I've screenshot and attached as that seemed the easiest way to do it), the injector operating cam journal on the camshaft doesn't look to be in the best condition:
Screenshot_20220306-170320_Samsung Internet.jpg
I never noticed the pitting and I didn't turn it over by hand and inspect the whole lobes that operate the injectors I needed a longer extension, the pitting is on no2 cylinder? Maybe I missed the obvious? Would it be worth taking the injector cam out and having a good look of the cam?
Given the live in the picture is pitted I think it's safe to say others will most likely have some wear. To take it out requires a bit of a strip down belt off,rocker shaft off etc so if it was me I would be replacing it if I was going to be removing it.