Hi Everyone.

Having starting problems with my Seat Alhambra Petrol 2.0s VW ADY Engine.  Same engine as used in VW Golfs Mkiii I think.

Initially, it would take three attempts before it started.  So I suspected the in tank fuel pump was failing due to lack of pressure.  When you open the door or turn key to ignition, the fuel pump can be heard priming up, so it is working, but I know the non-return value is known to fail. It is over 20 years old.. So I ordered a new fuel pump.  I was still driving the car. Occasionally, the car would cut out and not start.  After 20 mins, the car started again. So I still suspected a failing fuel pump.

But now, the car died completely on me and will not start at all.  RAC bought me home.  So i'm not sure it is the fuel pump anymore.

Checks I have done;

- No spark from the coil to HT lead. Tried another new coil. No Joy.
- There is 12V going to the Coil, but it does not spark.
- I started checking the CRANK Pulse Sensor. As i was taking it out, the insulation on the wires came away and I may have shorted it out. It was still connected to wiring loom.  Ordered a new Crank Pulse Sensor. But before I put it in, I checked the three pin connecter for the Crank Pulse Sensor. With the ignition on, I am NOT getting 12V or any voltage from the connector.  Should I be ?
- I tried connecting my ODBII Super Plus VAG Reader into the port, but it does not recognise the ECU any more.
- Tried another cheap ODBII ELM 327 , which I can see powers up, (LEDS flashing) but will not connect to the ECU.  Both these have worked on the car before.
On turning the key or opening the door, I can no longer hear the Fuel Pump priming up.
- I have checked all fuses under the steering column, fuse box, all OK.

AS I can't connect to the ECU, do you think I have blown the ECU ?

I will check the Immobiliser and fuel pump relays next, but I changed them about two years ago, so it can't be them but will check again.?

Any suggestions on how to proceed will be gratefully received.

Thanks

Bob.

Sounds like it could be a relay issue to me not powering up the ECU, not sure what the petrol equivalent of relay 109 is but that's where I would be looking.

Sounds like the classic relay 30 issues to me, though if its still labelled 30 on the seat Petrol I don't know. Usual giveaway on the Ford petrol is diagnostics won't connect, failure to start, mk2 won't turn over while mk1 would, and the door led flashing rapidly, provided its still connected. Some of this could be different on the Seat.

Start with the door led, rapid flashing is a sign of an immobiliser issue. Of course it may be failing to read the pats chip in the key for some reason, if you have another key try that just in case. Also check the bottom righthand fuse hasn't blown or worked loose etc, on the Ford's if that is missing that will give same issues

Doubtful it's done any damage to the ecu with what you have described either.

I have to agree, the ECU is designed with all sorts of protection so it's fairly unlikely to be damaged.

I also wouldn't expect to see 12V at any sensor in a modern car, they are nearly all either signal only or 5v these days. I'm also of the opinion the ECU isn't powering up. If you are confident testing wiring then look for the 12V lines and grounds to the ecu and measure them out, especially the primary ground's resistance. If not then definitely go over the fuse box again and then start like-for-like swapping relays over and see if the fault moves.

How on earth do u guys know all this stuff

Such immense depth of knowledge here, so impressive

You Guys are amazing.

I had a little time today, so I pulled the fusebox out and located the Relays.

Previously, when I had a no start situation, I used blanket change the Relay 100 and 30.  I recently changed the relays last year due to a no start and got the car working. The relays tend to last for about 8 years, but it seems relay no 30 was faulty after one year !!  The relay has an 86A connection which powers the relay OK, but there is also a connection 86. This one has a diode after the connection, which has blown I think so will not energize the relay. I still had the original 1st Relay, which i put in and hey presto, I am getting 12volts at the camshaft sensor now.

The car is still not starting, but I am now getting a spark at the distributor Cable coming from the coil.  Will be checking the fuel supply now.

My problem was I already had a suspicious fuel pressure problem, then it was compounded with no Spark a day after, confusing the issue, and the Crankshaft sensor wire insulation came away in my hand due to old age and shorted out..
So I have a few more checks to do.

I will keep you informed.  Thanks Guys..

Bob.

Pop the plastic cover off the relay and resolder the points on the pcb (on the one you have now, not the diode faulty one!). Thats the usual failure that happens (joints go dry on it, probabbly due to it being a bit underrated).

Looks like you've got past most of the immobiliser issues now - the fuel pump can be accessed from above, but you have to remove the carpet working from the rear drivers side door (uk drivers side that is, righthand side!) to get to it. Doesn't need to be completely removed, but you need to be able to pull it back up some way to get inside.

Have you managed to get the code readers working with your car again?
If you have I am very interested in knowing what you think fixed that. Realised I have had the same issue with my Seat Alhambra Mk1 TDI, ie code reader not working.

Quote from: grumpypanda on November 18, 2021, 06:46:02 PM
Have you managed to get the code readers working with your car again?
If you have I am very interested in knowing what you think fixed that. Realised I have had the same issue with my Seat Alhambra Mk1 TDI, ie code reader not working.

The usual cause is the relay problem (109 in the case of the diesel). Though more info would help - does yours start? Does the door light flash. Does the code reader work some of the time and not others? And what code reader are you using?

The petrol versions definitely won't speak to a code reader if the immobiliser is still active (rapidly flashing door led) which could be casued by a few things - main one being a failed relay, but a dodgy chip in the key (or missing chip) will do the same sort of sympoms.

If it starts and runs, but doesn't want to speak to diagnostics, a few possible casues - issue with the socket (pins corroded or come out of the slots), or code reader not setup right (VCDS needs the port setup and the right cable for example, a standard code reader may be a bit more simple in that respect to troubleshoot)

Brian, many thanks for your response and guidance on things to consider. My diesel Alhambra is starting up well the majority of the time (over 95%). I had a look at the driver's door security system light, which comes on for a period after the ignition is switched on, and then goes out again. I had not considered a problem with the ignition key before. In my case I suspect the problem is more likely to be the set up or compatibility of the code reader, but it wasn't mine and I didn't operate it so can't really answer your questions to do with that. My need to correctly diagnose the airbag warning light (that consistently comes back on after initial warning lights check routine) and investigate the engine control system/fuel pump means that I will be getting my own code reader very soon. I am looking at getting the Ancel VD500 code reader. But I am really interested in if there was something Bob fixed on his car that meant his code readers would operate correctly again with his vehicle.

John, depending how close you are to Westbury in Wiltshire (I know the South West region isn't small lol) you are welcome to come here for a full VCDS code read.

Quote from: grumpypanda on November 19, 2021, 10:18:06 AM
Brian, many thanks for your response and guidance on things to consider. My diesel Alhambra is starting up well the majority of the time (over 95%). I had a look at the driver's door security system light, which comes on for a period after the ignition is switched on, and then goes out again. I had not considered a problem with the ignition key before. In my case I suspect the problem is more likely to be the set up or compatibility of the code reader, but it wasn't mine and I didn't operate it so can't really answer your questions to do with that. My need to correctly diagnose the airbag warning light (that consistently comes back on after initial warning lights check routine) and investigate the engine control system/fuel pump means that I will be getting my own code reader very soon. I am looking at getting the Ancel VD500 code reader. But I am really interested in if there was something Bob fixed on his car that meant his code readers would operate correctly again with his vehicle.

Just thinking about the above, I have a feeling theres certain stereo models (replacement ones) that cause an issue with the k-line connection which can knock out the diagnostics. Have a feeling the fix is a case of changing the connector on the stereo (removing one pin and putting it elsewhere in the connector)

Does it have the original stereo or a replacement? Is it working if you have the stereo unplugged? Diagnostics should work if you have the ignition switched on with or without engine running.

Latest Update...

So my original symptoms were; No Start on first turning the key, like it used to before. Never used to have a stating problem with the car.. The car did however start after the Third Attempt. So I suspected the fuel pump in the tank. It's 21 Years Old so thought it was on it's way out.  So ordered a new Fuel Pump.

In the meantime, I had a look at the Rotor and Distributor Cap.  The Cap was all cracked. so needed changing.  I changed them both for an Intermotor Rotor and a Bremi Distributor Cap.  This did not sort out the "Third attempt" Starting issue.

So I kept driving the car while waiting for the fuel pump to arrive from Germany.  To my dismay, the car stuttered to a holt on the dual carriageway a week later. The RAC kindly dragged me home. The RAC Man didn't check the car after I told him I thought it was the fuel pump.  We did listen for the pump turning on when opening the door or turning the key to ignition. We heard nothing. So, confident it was the fuel pump, I got a tow home.

So, during my checks, I found no spark at the centre point of the distributor cap. There was no power coming from the coil.  I had changed Relay 30 & 100, ECU/Immobiliser and Fuel pump I think, last year, so did not suspect the relays.  I thought it might be an issue with Crankshaft sensor (G28) or Camshaft sensor (G40) (The one on the distributor). As I tried to remove the Crankshaft Speed Sensor, the insulation came away in my hand and all three wires were shorting with each other.

Car is old, so I ordered these two sensors.  I then checked for power at the CrankShaft sensor plug.  There was nothing.  So next I pulled the fuse box out, (from under the steering column) and checked relays 30 & 100.  Relay 30 had a failed diode.  I replaced the Relay.  Now I was getting power to the Crankshaft Position sensor (G28).  So I taped up the old Crankshaft sensor and plugged it in.  Still NO START.   I was now getting a spark at the Coil lead, going to the distributor, but on further checking, no spark at any of the spark plugs or leads coming out of the distributor. Very Strange. Its a NEW Cap and Rotor..

The inside of the New Distributor Cap had black burn marks on the inside copper Pins. Anyway, I took it back to GSF and got an exchange rotor and Cap.  Changing the Rotor did nothing, but when I changed the Distributor Cap for another new one,  the car started again on the third attempt !!!! The Cap had become faulty after 2 weeks !!

So now, the car was again starting on the third attempt, from cold.  By this time the Fuel Pump and two Sensors had arrived.  I changed the Crankshaft sensor and to my surprise, the "Third Attempt" starting problem went away !! I was Happy !! The sensor had been faulty and not the fuel pump.

I drove the car around locally, then a little further.  I noticed the car was stuttering occasionally. So I still suspected the Fuel Pump again.  I was gonna send the new pump back, but now because of this stuttering, I decided to change the Fuel Pump.

The car felt a bit better with a bit more power, but this was all short-lived !! The car started to Stutter again. The more I drove it, the worse it got, until finally, the car died outside my house.  I used the starter motor and first gear, to drag the car onto my driveway.  I checked for a spark at the coil again, there was nothing ...  DAM I thought the Relay had failed again.  I left the car on the drive. It was 8pm and dark. I wasn't gonna pull out the fuse box again and the relays at that time of night.

Good thing I didn't, because the next morning, the car started first time again.. !!!  So now I have a thermal problem.  Some component it getting hot and not allowing the coil to generate a spark.  For your information, I changed the coil 7 months ago for an ErstKlassig Coil from (German Swedish French) GSF.   So surely, that can't have failed already, could it ??!!

So tomorrow, I am gonna change the coil again, and this time I have bought a BREMI coil and will see if that makes a difference.

For your information, I am still NOT able to connect and interrogate the ECU. Both my OBDII devices, which used to connect to the car and worked perfectly, are both not connecting anymore but do work on my Golf, so they are OK.

Anyone suggest any place to look re the OBDII connection problem?  RE: The stereo suggestion above, the Car Stereo is still the same original unit from new.

If changing the coil does not solve the problem, I don't know what else to do...  All suggestions are welcome..

Thank You All..

Did you go back to your old relay 30 or have you either resoldered the joints on the back of it, or sourced one from somewhere else? Its not unknown for the socket it sits in to be problematic (pins push out of the socket as you push the relay in so they don't properly connect). I've found relay 30 to be more likely a thermal issue and when on the mk2 mine started acting up, it would be driving fine for miles, then suddenly stutter and usually come back. Until it decides its had enough, at which point the engine just dies (note that I had relay 30 issues on the mk1, infact it was brought as spares/repairs with that issue known but that didn't cut out, just would not start randomly usually when hot, would turn over but no spark or fuel injector firing).

Have you tried the diagnostics when the car does start/when it is running ok?
Does the led on the drivers door flash rapidly when it won't start? (I don't think you've answered this, but you might have done so and I've missed it!)

BrianH - Thanks for your input.  I bought a new Meyle Relay (German Make). Didn't want to mess around with resoldering..

I tried the Diagnostics again, now that the car starts. I was getting it to connect now, But there were no codes stored.

Yesterday, I drove the car locally, getting it to reach temperature.  All seemed fine for 20mins, then the stuttering started again..  Occasional stutters at first, then progressively worse.  Until finally it would idle ok, but as soon as I rased the RPM, the car started to miss-fire and cut out.

I used electrical cleaner spray on the King Lead (Coil to Distributer Cable) and a bit of sandpaper to clean the copper connections.  The car started running OK again for about 2 mins, then the same problem.

I suspect the King Lead at the moment.  As I have NEVER changed the HT leads in 21 Years, (still the original leads after 160,000 miles) I think I should change those and see how things go.  I have recently read the HT Leads should be changed around 60,000 Miles, so not bad going.  Also, when I was pulling lead 4 off the spark plug, the wire came away in my hand, with the other end still on the spark plug !!  So the leads have definitely had it and need changing.

I think the King lead is suffering a thermal Breakdown Problem.  Well, that's what I am hoping, a simple fix.

I have ordered some quality leads from Germany, as EuroCarparts and GSF, just don't have a proper brand name.  The only issue is it takes one week Plus, to get them delivered from Germany..

Fingers crossed.

Gents,

An update.

I replaced the Ignition leads and the car seemed OK.... FOR A WHILE.. Until I broke down again at night, in the cold. My car had to be transported on a carrier.

The RAC man came out and tried his best, but in the end, could not fathom what was going on. In the dark, he could see a spark going to the King PIN on the distributor cap but no further.

I have now replaced the rotor and cap TWICE with BREMI CAP and Intermotor Rotor Arm, (Thats all GSF had). It seems the Kin Pin on the Cap is building up resistance.

I have now replaced the CAP with a RIDEX distributor Cap and the car has started again. But I fear, this cap will fail again and I don't know why the caps are failing.

The following is a letter I have sent to BREMI Germany asking for information.


Subject:Customer Services - Distributor cap Failures HELP

Dear Sirs,

I have bought two of your BREMI distributor caps and a BREMI ignition coil, for my car, A Petrol SEAT ALHAMBRA 2.0i

I am finding, after about two weeks of driving, the car stops. I have isolated it to your distributor cap going faulty. This has happened to two BREMI caps I have bought now.

I am finding, the distributor cap King Pin, Keeps failing. When I test the Distributor cap king pin, I get a resistance of 139 Ohms and the car will not start.

When I purchase a new Distributor cap i get 12 Ohms and the car will start. But after a while, the new cap suffers the same failure after about two weeks of driving. The center carbon pin has a high resistance and the high voltage will not go through the distributor cap to the rotor Arm to the High voltage cables and to the spark plugs.

Can you please advise me what is going on? Why are the Distributor Caps Failing like this?
Is it a manufacturing issue?

The BREMI distributor Cap has a label; "BREMI 6027R"

Please advise and can you advise who my local BREMI contact is in the UK.

Thank you.

Bob


Lets see what they say, but I am sure my learned friends on the site, will have some answers..

Thank You.

Bob.

The centre pin is essentially a carbon brush so I struggle to see why it would keep failing like that unless it is suffering from cracking. Whether that's from cheap materials/production or an issue with the coil causing it I don't know.

I'm at a loss. So as a backup, I have ordered a new BOSCH rotor and cap.  Have had to order from Germany, as Eurocarparts don't stock them anymore and GSF will probably have the same BREMI ones. BOSCH are so much more expensive, but needs must I suppose..

Sounds like a sensible course of action. I take it you've already replaced the plugs? (you don't mention them as far as I can see?)

The Ford models don't use a distributor.

I don't tend to use GSF as I've had problems with parts from them in the past, I've usually found ECP to be more reliable and easier to deal with.

Update..

I replaced the rotor and distributor cap with a Bosch make. The car has been running perfectly since then. So this car needed a good quality rotor and cap..

However, I now have a new problem which I will post separately.. !